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Old 01-05-2018, 08:55 AM   #1626
SetofJacks
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

What is the worst suited hand you would play in this spot?
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Old 01-05-2018, 10:45 AM   #1627
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I feel like if you think you have good potential implied odds or fold equity based on who you're up against it's a call. If it's the opposite then fold. It's not like this is no limit were you can stack your opponents. I'd call here 100% if there was one more player in.

I don't think there should be a particular pot odds number to guide us here. I could play any two suited HU against the right player. I may prefer an overlay against other lineups.
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Old 01-05-2018, 11:43 AM   #1628
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

20/40 live 9 handed.

CO is a good TAG, button is a loose passive reg, blinds are both fairly laggy and not great.

Folded to me in HJ...I have JTo.
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Old 01-05-2018, 02:11 PM   #1629
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
I'd call here 100% if there was one more player in.
Agreed. I think one more player in is the threshold.
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Old 01-05-2018, 03:03 PM   #1630
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
20/40 live 9 handed.

CO is a good TAG, button is a loose passive reg, blinds are both fairly laggy and not great.

Folded to me in HJ...I have JTo.
imo: fold.

KTo: fold
K9s: raise
K8s: fold
KTs: raise
KJo: raise

QJo: raise
T9s: raise
98s: fold, though some argue playing this here

Q9s: fold
QTs: raise

A7o: fold
Arguably raise down to A5s (some people play any suited ace here b/c blinds are laggy and not great)
A8o: borderline but i'd raise. Obv raise A9o

77: raise
66: probably still raise
55: probably still raise but close to a fold
44: fold
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Old 01-05-2018, 03:39 PM   #1631
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
I feel like if you think you have good potential implied odds or fold equity based on who you're up against it's a call. If it's the opposite then fold. It's not like this is no limit were you can stack your opponents. I'd call here 100% if there was one more player in.

I don't think there should be a particular pot odds number to guide us here. I could play any two suited HU against the right player. I may prefer an overlay against other lineups.
I change my answer of "I'd call" to this. I would fold against two players I thought played really well.
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Old 01-05-2018, 03:43 PM   #1632
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

^ definitely have to be raising the Q9s there. I think JTo is bottom of my opening range here. If I were examining how to lop off C-game this would be one of those spots I'd look at because I would open JTo here some of the time but not 100%. I think with a good TAG and a Loose-Passive in CO and BTN, I'd lean towards opening.
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Old 01-05-2018, 04:06 PM   #1633
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SetofJacks View Post
What is the worst suited hand you would play in this spot?
around T8s
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Old 01-05-2018, 04:22 PM   #1634
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post
^ definitely have to be raising the Q9s there. I think JTo is bottom of my opening range here. If I were examining how to lop off C-game this would be one of those spots I'd look at because I would open JTo here some of the time but not 100%. I think with a good TAG and a Loose-Passive in CO and BTN, I'd lean towards opening.
do you raise Q8s? if not then it's certainly not a "definitely raise" spot with Q9s. if you do raise Q8s i think that's too loose for sure.

JTo is just a bit too low cardy to open from the HJ w/ a solid player behind and laggy not good blinds imo
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:16 PM   #1635
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Q8s would be my first flex hand but the players behind me would have to be giving me trouble before I started considering folding Q9s.

There's a difference between a good TAG and a good lagtag. I want the former on my left so I can keep opening wide ranges and not get punished.
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:38 PM   #1636
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post
Q8s would be my first flex hand but the players behind me would have to be giving me trouble before I started considering folding Q9s.

There's a difference between a good TAG and a good lagtag. I want the former on my left so I can keep opening wide ranges and not get punished.
there's still TWO people behind you who can have position on you and who recognize the blinds for what they are. Q8s is simply too loose to open there. Q9s is arguably too loose. if you're opening Q8s then you're also opening J9s, J8s, T8s, 98s, etc.
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:43 PM   #1637
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UpHillBothWays View Post
imo: fold.

KTo: fold
K9s: raise
K8s: fold
KTs: raise
KJo: raise

QJo: raise
T9s: raise
98s: fold, though some argue playing this here

Q9s: fold
QTs: raise

A7o: fold
Arguably raise down to A5s (some people play any suited ace here b/c blinds are laggy and not great)
A8o: borderline but i'd raise. Obv raise A9o

77: raise
66: probably still raise
55: probably still raise but close to a fold
44: fold
Thanks for sharing your ranges here!

I usually fold JTo but open QTo and KTo

I also open Q9s and 89s

I agree with the rest.
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:46 PM   #1638
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UpHillBothWays View Post
there's still TWO people behind you who can have position on you and who recognize the blinds for what they are. Q8s is simply too loose to open there. Q9s is arguably too loose. if you're opening Q8s then you're also opening J9s, J8s, T8s, 98s, etc.
I don't expect a TAG to interfere with what I'm doing very often - that's why they are sitting on my left. Because I want them there. I would usually open all the hands you just listed unless I'm getting consistent resistance by the players with position.
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Old 01-06-2018, 09:13 AM   #1639
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I agree w/ folding jto from hj, especially in the game described

I think q9s/k8s/a7o are all feasible but not mandatory open here, qto & kto seems a bit optimistic, even folding qjo is prob fine

if we wanted to construct a strategy where we limp some hands here because lag players see flops very often, I'm sure we could include jto

Last edited by monikrazy; 01-06-2018 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 01-06-2018, 09:15 AM   #1640
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post
Q8s would be my first flex hand but the players behind me would have to be giving me trouble before I started considering folding Q9s.

There's a difference between a good TAG and a good lagtag. I want the former on my left so I can keep opening wide ranges and not get punished.
What hands do you think a good lag/tag is 3 betting here? I'm curious how much wider of a range they have compared to a TAG.
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Old 01-06-2018, 04:27 PM   #1641
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Not going to dig deep into it at the moment, but I would expect TAGs to mostly play a straight forward strategy. Like, they aren't going to start three betting 44 or A3s or J9s because they saw me open Q8s once. When I think of TAGs I think of players that are generally not adjusting. They are going to respond to a HJ open like they always respond to a HJ open. I suppose there's a difference between a decent TAG and a good TAG, but when players start exploiting I start to categorize them differently (i.e. lagtag).
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Old 01-07-2018, 12:46 PM   #1642
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post
Not going to dig deep into it at the moment, but I would expect TAGs to mostly play a straight forward strategy. Like, they aren't going to start three betting 44 or A3s or J9s because they saw me open Q8s once. When I think of TAGs I think of players that are generally not adjusting. They are going to respond to a HJ open like they always respond to a HJ open. I suppose there's a difference between a decent TAG and a good TAG, but when players start exploiting I start to categorize them differently (i.e. lagtag).
I agree!

I'd also add that there are good lags and bad lags. Some people aspire to be a "lag/tag" but fail miserably. I think the true "lag/tag" is basically the modern day TAG who is capable of adjusting too different pre flop situations and who is combative post flop.
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Old 01-07-2018, 12:57 PM   #1643
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Regarding early position play....Is there much of a difference in you're opening range between being UTG and UTG+2?

I usually open QTs, KTs, JTs type hands UTG unless the game is extremely agro. Is this too loose in a normal agro 20/40 game? I know we have discussed this in the past, but I'm curious what the consensus is these day's. Perhaps it doesn't really matter. I know winning players who don't play these hands. I know winning players who open 9Ts UTG or worse.
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Old 01-07-2018, 01:11 PM   #1644
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Your natural inclination should be to want to play more hands in the most profitable seats, so BTN, CO. Adding breakeven hands from UTG and UTG+1 should seem bad. If you're a genius and playing some GT based style where you have balance issues with your EP range, you play those hands -- you're saying that you play so well that those hands are profitable for you. It should make you harder to play against because of better board coverage, but if you make mistakes you either A) have to learn these tough spots with marginal hands, or B) should skip these spots. I don't think I play well enough to open 87s in EP. People who I respect as good players raise hands that I don't play. Who knows?
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Old 01-07-2018, 02:25 PM   #1645
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I haven't played in a game yet where I couldn't confidently open all the suited Broadways UTG.
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Old 01-07-2018, 02:31 PM   #1646
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I still think of TAGs in the classic sense, as most of the "good" players I encounter in my area are on the nitty side.

For instance, a player a lot of regs at Fortune think is the best in the building once folded her big blind to my button open something like eight times in a row before playing back at me. I mean... she didn't even defend one time.
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Old 01-07-2018, 02:51 PM   #1647
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post
I haven't played in a game yet where I couldn't confidently open all the suited Broadways UTG.
He asked about T9s, is that a suited Broadway? Where do you draw the line?
Quote:
"good" players I encounter in my area are on the nitty side.
if the better players in your game are nits, that would want me to open wider. Is that the adjustment you're making?
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Old 01-07-2018, 02:56 PM   #1648
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I draw the line at T9s. He actually asked if opening some of these suited broadways UTG was too loose. I don't really have a flex hand for UTG: JTs+, 77+, ATs+. I don't think UTG is the place for expanding your opening range.

I'm not making an adjustment but I suppose it's because I haven't had to. This was my opening range at 8/16 also.
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Old 01-07-2018, 03:20 PM   #1649
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Perhaps it doesn't really matter.
I think this is true with the marginal hands. The profitability of KTs, QTs, and JTs is going to be so close to zero that it really doesn't matter what you do in the vast majority of games. If you happen to find yourself in a game where such thin profit margins will make or break you? Fold them.
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Old 01-08-2018, 07:22 AM   #1650
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
Regarding early position play....Is there much of a difference in you're opening range between being UTG and UTG+2?

I usually open QTs, KTs, JTs type hands UTG unless the game is extremely agro. Is this too loose in a normal agro 20/40 game? I know we have discussed this in the past, but I'm curious what the consensus is these day's. Perhaps it doesn't really matter. I know winning players who don't play these hands. I know winning players who open 9Ts UTG or worse.

not much of a difference between utg+1 and utg unless the table is not full (walkers not uncommon), if it is say 7-handed it starts becoming more important

Opening qt and kt utg seems horrible to me, how often and what other suited connectors aside from jt you should play utg is a whole different question but I think always raising jts from utg is unlikely to be correct
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