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Pre flop check up posts. Pre flop check up posts.

11-28-2017 , 05:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garwin
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...-quot-1479652/

@mongidig : I copied and pasted the quote from post #195, so yes it is accurate. According to TPirahna, you need less equity to 3-bet SB vs CO than BTN vs CO, I noticed he talks about this again in post #138 :

"There's a big difference between being in the small blind and being in a non-blind position. That quarter of a big bet that's already invested is a big incentive to 3-bet a lot of hands. You can actually 3-bet more hands profitably from the SB vs. CO than you can on the button vs. the CO."

That's the main difference with the book WITHG, Stox explains that you can use the same equity requirement vs the raiser's range to 3-bet from both positions.
The problem with this sort of analysis is it ignores position and playability.

I am in a much better situation 3-betting A2 suited on the button than I am in the small blind, for instance, because A2 suited both has showdown value and is going to miss a poop-ton of flops, so the option to check it back at some point in the hand is extremely valuable.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
11-28-2017 , 05:54 PM
Lawdude, that's true but I think that if you're not using a flop checking strategy with A2s small blind vs late position then you shouldn't be 3 betting preflop. In other words, the days of getting away with 100% cbet are gone without a significant range vs range advantage, which in effect gives us a larger than fair share of ev coming back on top of our investment with our entire range.

Maybe your game is different? Maybe you can get away with it in your game. I would expect any significant stake action online in the modern environment to include a player or players that know a bit about limit holdem. Thus if we played "guess the game texture and maximally profitable counter strategy without seeing any action" I would say that 100% cbetting is bad on the majority of flops.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
11-28-2017 , 11:20 PM
HJ limps, CO raises, button cold calls and we have J8s in the sb

?
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
11-29-2017 , 01:25 AM
Call
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
11-29-2017 , 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148
Lawdude, that's true but I think that if you're not using a flop checking strategy with A2s small blind vs late position then you shouldn't be 3 betting preflop. In other words, the days of getting away with 100% cbet are gone without a significant range vs range advantage, which in effect gives us a larger than fair share of ev coming back on top of our investment with our entire range.

Maybe your game is different? Maybe you can get away with it in your game. I would expect any significant stake action online in the modern environment to include a player or players that know a bit about limit holdem. Thus if we played "guess the game texture and maximally profitable counter strategy without seeing any action" I would say that 100% cbetting is bad on the majority of flops.
I agree, but even with a flop checking strategy, an opponent can force you to pay 2.5BB to see showdown, whereas you can see showdown for 1.5BB or 2BB from the button. With a hand with showdown value that misses a lot of flops, that's valuable.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
11-29-2017 , 05:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SetofJacks
These seem like fine thoughts for small stakes where people limp big hands.
At mid stakes (and I understand I'm currently posting in SSLHE), I feel limping a hand like KJo or QJo would be a mistake since limping ranges are soooo decapitated.
The limping ranges are definately stronger at the smaller stakes. I still see plenty of players limp biggish hands in the 20/40 game. Things tend to escalate quickly in the 20. I see a lot more 3 betting and limp reraising pre flop. I try to pick my spots carefully when raising for thin value or iso raising. KJ may be too strong not to raise against some lineups. At smaller stakes, players tend to respect raises so you are more able to get a 4 card flop or potentially run a bluff. This seems to counterbalance the potential range on range deficit.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
12-01-2017 , 11:58 PM
Button raises, we have A8o in the small blind?
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
12-02-2017 , 12:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PLBlow
Button raises, we have A8o in the small blind?
Assuming a typical button steal range it's an easy 3 bet. At lower limits some players have a flat range, meaning they raise with the same tight range on the button as they would UTG. Adjust accordingly.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
12-02-2017 , 05:04 AM
Terrible UTG straddles. BB is tight and losing reg. SB is loose and losing reg.

What's your opening range OTB? How about in the CO?
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
12-02-2017 , 05:44 AM
Same as my normal stealing range. A2+, K2s+, K7o+, Q9o+, Q5s+ and additional hands that make sense from the button. Slightly tighter in the CO.

My own question:
Midstakes game, good-not-great player in the BB.
Folds to me in the SB. He folds sometimes when I raise here. Should I raise always, or still be somewhat selective?
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
12-02-2017 , 09:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by qotd
Terrible UTG straddles. BB is tight and losing reg. SB is loose and losing reg.

What's your opening range OTB? How about in the CO?
On the button I would 3 bet even wider than my normal opening range especially with tight blinds. The extra money in the pot and opportunity to play against a terrible player in position makes opening things up quite profitable.

I would need to know what flavor of terrible the straddler is to give a specific range I would play. If he is sticky post flop, I may eliminate some of my lower card hands. If he gives up to easily I may play way more hands.

I would 3 bet hands like Q5o, J5o, T7o, 78o. you could probably 3 bet with worse but you do have to take into consideration that one of the blinds or straddler might wake up with a hand. I understand the dynamics here but I am not 100% sure if my range is good. Maybe I should loosen up even more or maybe tighten up.

If The button is tight, I may 3 bet with a similar range. It doesn't seem to get folded to the CO or button often in my games. I think a decent part of our profits comes from recognizing these situations and acting on it when it comes up.

If the straddler likes to reraise then that adds a level of complexity. I suppose in this case we would want to lean toward playing the more showdownable high cards.

Last edited by mongidig; 12-02-2017 at 10:05 AM.
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12-02-2017 , 09:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SetofJacks
Same as my normal stealing range. A2+, K2s+, K7o+, Q9o+, Q5s+ and additional hands that make sense from the button. Slightly tighter in the CO.

My own question:
Midstakes game, good-not-great player in the BB.
Folds to me in the SB. He folds sometimes when I raise here. Should I raise always, or still be somewhat selective?
If he doesn't take advantage of your wide open range by 3 betting you more and he folds sometimes I would raise 100%. I would fold the worst of the worst. Whether to tweek this strategy or not will depend on how he plays post flop. Some otherwise good players are not comfortable playing HU. Some players over adjust and get too spewy or too showdown bound. Will he raise a ton if you limp in? Maybe a mixed strategy might be best.
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12-02-2017 , 10:34 AM
He is definitely way overfolding, probably ~20%.
I folded Q3o from the SB and I believe that to be a mistake given how many hands he's willing to fold pre.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
12-02-2017 , 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SetofJacks
He is definitely way overfolding, probably ~20%.
I folded Q3o from the SB and I believe that to be a mistake given how many hands he's willing to fold pre.
I think so especially if he is not combative post flop. I don't have a ton of BVB experience live. I used to play a lot of 6 max pre Black Friday. I remember folding only the worst hands like the bottom 15-20% ish. I don't get into a lot of these situations live anymore mostly because I haven't played a ton recently. Also because the games are so loose.

I'm curious if BVB preflop strategies have evolved and exactly what are the good players doing these day's.

I'd think Q3o is a play against most players regardless if they fold too much. I hope to here other thoughts.
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12-02-2017 , 08:04 PM
It could be, I usually start with Q5o
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12-03-2017 , 06:13 AM
I would definitely not fold Q3o heads up in the blinds - against basically any player and certainly not against the type described. If he's folding too much both pre and on the flop then yeah, you might as well raise everything and maybe fold the bottom 10% or so.
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12-03-2017 , 10:18 AM
Bad lag opens button, expert in SB 3 bets, we are in the BB.

Assume we are not capping here. Assume button never folds to a cap. Assume button isn't auto capping.

What does the bottom of your call range look like? I'm more interested in were you draw the line with suited hands and off suit K's and A's. I think defending any pair and suited Ace sounds about right,but perhaps you have different thoughts on that.

I'm getting back into the game after a while off so I feel a bit sloppy in this spot.

BTW....assume this is a 4 handed game at the moment so other things besides equities should be considered. I certainly can't allow the SB to get away with isoing the bad lag. I would like to play pots against the bad lag. I like my relative position to the good player.

The bad lag plays too many hands...bets when he shouldn't, checks when he shouldn't, bluffs when he shouldn't, makes bad folds, makes bad calls.......Makes a lot of mistakes.

Last edited by mongidig; 12-03-2017 at 10:34 AM.
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12-04-2017 , 10:22 PM
I'd actually raise btn a bit wider when a straddle is on because while there's more players who could wake up and smash me, sb and bb are both less likely to enter the pot and straddle is going to have a weaker range accordingly (so I'll still have position and RvR eq). Plus, mode money to take down.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
12-05-2017 , 09:43 AM
I think the easiest way to visualize the ev gain on the button in a straddle pot is to think of a four handed game, remembering that everyone loses in the blinds; if the blinds lose ev, that means the button gains ev; I think this indicates a wider opening range for the button.
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12-05-2017 , 10:46 AM
So how wide of a range are you talking? Does the range I posted seem correct or are you adding more hands?

This is in regards to straddle hand.
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12-05-2017 , 11:09 AM
I just mean wide relative to normal button open range.

Prob like 60% or 70% if they're tight pre.
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12-05-2017 , 12:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148
I just mean wide relative to normal button open range.

Prob like 60% or 70% if they're tight pre.
The way I have been doing it is if I am in EP and first to act after straddle I 3 bet with my normal opening range. I start to add hands to my normal open range as I get closer to the button. I adjust accordingly based on the players to my left.

These are very profitable situations so I agree with your button range estimate.
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12-05-2017 , 12:14 PM
First two players limp, I am next to act. It is a 9 handed game. At least 7 people are seeing a flop. It gets raised preflop about 50% of the time pre. I'd say about 50% of the time that it gets raised it ends up being a capped pot. The two guys two my right like to limp reraise and WTF cap. Post flop tends to play normal but can escalate at times. The guy to my left folds nothing ever pre flop.

What do you do with these hands? Kh9h, 6h7h, ATo, KJo.
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12-05-2017 , 04:45 PM
I raise all 4 and would be happy to get it capped with the two suited ones.
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12-05-2017 , 08:50 PM
Given the dynamics described my standard would be raise kj & at, call 76, fold k9.. if someone prefers raising 76 to overlimping, I get it

Overlimping vs raising kjo is also pretty close, we probably don't need to worry about being balanced here so I don't mind keeping the pot a little smaller
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