Nice callout. However, the question BBB asks all the time of "what's his range and how do these hands to against that range" is the best starting point. So. What's the villain's range and how good/bad are these hands?

Okay, Google, what is the opening range for a solid tight-aggressive player in the cutoff seat in limit hold'em?

I don't hate this mindset. My main argument for playing aggressively with most of our continuing range is that it helps us win pots when both players miss. I do like the idea of having some stronger hands in our calling range though.

I could have wrote "duh" but that would have come off as rude.

I'm pretty sure we covered this already somewhere within this thread. It should be assumed that posters outside of obvious newbies have a basic understanding of range on range and equities. The purpose of this thread is to dig a little deeper.

I should have been more specific as to the reason for posting this question. I've been away from the game for a while and feel a bit rusty pre flop. I've spent many hours crunching the numbers. In this particular hand we are not doing great against a TAG. However, I see winning players 3 bet in this situation and I recall watching a vid were the pro has these hands at the bottom of his 3 bet range. I'm just wondering why? Or maybe I misheard him or maybe he was reffering to a special player who needs to be 3 bet etc.

Just looking for a little discussion. Sometimes you come across an aha moment that transcends what the numbers say.

Now I know why the forum is dead

Are you allowed to use Google at the table?

I'd start with the winning players making different assumptions about villain ranges than you do. Maybe ask the other way, what does the villain's range have to be to make this a slam dunk 3 bet?

Two points I'd make. You said that the blinds are tight. That makes raising light pretty attractive due to dead money. If the spot is close, I'd want to raise. Two, those of us who played the internet pokerz might read "solid TAG" differently in shorthanded spots -- as in, he's likely over-folding or missing value because he's not a good LAGTAG. You might mean it as "one of the best players at the table", and this difference of reading could make reasonable people offer different opinions.

I'd fold em all.

Put the raiser on the button, and me in the small blind? I'm 3 betting KTo and folding the others as default.

KTo?: 22+, A2s+, A2o+, K2s+, K8o+, etc. notice that I dominate big chunks of his Kx range.

QTo?: 22+, A2s+, A2o+, K2s+, K5o+, Q2s+, Q8o+, etc. notice that I dominate big chunks of his Qx range.

JTo?: too risky due to the possibility of the players in the blinds waking up with a real hand and or becoming aware that I'm 3 betting so light. I'm down with exploiting on the margins but this one needs a perfect storm of tight players all around me, in which case I'm wondering wtf I'm doing in that game.

I'm struggling to make sense of this to the point I'm wondering if there's a typo somewhere. Fold KTo on button to cutoff open but three bet the same hand from out of position against button open?

Yup.

You'd rather play the same hand out of position than in position against a similar opening range?

I don’t think 30% range and 50% range are similar, plus the presence of two opponents in the blinds is much worse than one opponent in the blind.

I have a feeling the gap in those ranges are closer than you think. The extra blind player is easily made up for by having position.

KTo is close. Vs my CO open (~35%) it's neither an auto 3b nor a auto fold but closer to the fold. I'd think about who the BB is and how they're likely to affect my play of KTo. I'd much prefer they were too tight than too loose. Then I pause just a sec to consider whether the SB can 3b appropriately. And then either raise or fold.

If the CO opener has top 30% you should fold.

How much edge, expressed as a % of the pot, do you think position is worth?

30% --> 50% = 66% increase, which is significant.

Yeah. None of these hands have an auto-play; it's all dependent on the variables you mentioned. I just think it's strange to prefer attacking from the small blind over attacking from the button.

I think if the opener is wide - which a solid TAG should be - then having position is everything. I'm not really sure how to answer the % of the pot question.

That math is not wrong. But I think your assumptions of the opening ranges may be.

For example, once upon a time in the theory forum, a heads up no limit holdem expert that has authored books for 2+2 publishing, and one that played in the toughest heads up no limit holdem games around for a long time, which produced a huge database, which was picked apart and analyzed by the author and other heads up no limit holdem experts, he decided to calculate the value of position and found that in that format, which should benefit the in position player much more than a game of limit holdem, position only resulted in a delta of +5% for the button. In the long run, the pot was distributed approximately 45%/55% in favor of the in position player.

Since I learned this, I always assumed that in a limit game the positional advantage was <10% of the pot vs decent players.

Because of that, I'm inclined to disagree with this:

You could be right, but I don't think it's as clear as you seem to think it is.

Ok what ranges do you put a supposed solid tag on when he opens the co and button respectively?

I haven't crunched the numbers like that. All I'm saying is that if I had to choose between three betting KTo from the small blind or three betting KTo from the button, I think the decision actually is pretty clear.

I'm playing a session right now. I will get back to you.

I would 3-bet all three against most players.

And I think ~38% is fairly standard, in my local 20 game, for a CO steal.
Against this range, JTo has 42% equity, QTo 45%, and KTo 49%.

38% seems more lag than tag imo.

If a TAG isn't opening wider from CO and BTN, can he really be described as "solid?"

Wider than what? There comes a point of unprofitability. Where do you draw the line? I draw it around 30% with a strong player on the button. I think 38% is much too wide from the cutoff with Mongodig behind me.