I plat T8 too

I have done this. I think it's so close to breakeven that it doesn't really matter what you do with this hand. However, I've been playing online shorthanded exclusively for a while now with zero live game exposure in the past year and a half or so. T8o will get chewed up even in limped pots in an online game.

I'd probably even dump T9o online.

4/8 Live Full Ring 10 seats. Questions about 2 hands.

First hand I am dealt at the table; so no reads.

UTG+2 opens with a raise.

MP calls

Hero in HJ: 109

Fold, call, 3 bet?

Second hand happens about 10 minutes later; so still not many reads.

UTG raises

MP calls; HJ calls; I look left and see BB reaching for chips and cutting out what looks like a call stack.

Hero on BTN: K10

Fold, call, 3 bet?

I would fold first hand.

Calling is probably fine in second hand but I would three bet.

Call both.

I usually call both, but the first one is pretty marginal. If the raiser has a tight range and it's a high raked game, maybe folding would be best.

I fold 1st hand call the second

First hand, you're 2 off the button and no read of the table? If you had another cold caller, more exciting. Think if you have even a hint of the table being loose/passive, fine. Close fold or really marginal call. You don't have to post in this game? It is strange being in the HJ with no post on your first hand.

Second hand, you're facing an UTG open with a hand that most people in this game don't open. Thus, don't 3 bet. You have 3 cold callers "committed" to the pot? Fine. Call.

Here's two runs with UTG on a normal-ish opening range (for 4/8?) vs. a tight range. We'll take your read of the BB being true, so not a 1.5% 3! range and maybe a random hand 5 ways. The two cold callers 2% raising range and 33% calling range. Not a lot of thought, just some ranges.

Equity Win Tie
UTG 30.79% 29.87% 0.92% { 88+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+ }
MP1 16.32% 15.12% 1.20% { TT-55, AQs-A2s, K4s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 98s, AQo-A4o, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
MP3 16.36% 15.16% 1.20% { TT-55, AQs-A2s, K4s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 98s, AQo-A4o, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
BU 21.82% 20.80% 1.02% { KdTd }
BB 14.72% 14.11% 0.60% { TT-22, AJs-A2s, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, AQo-A2o, K2o+, Q2o+, J2o+, T2o+, 92o+, 82o+, 72o+, 62o+, 52o+, 42o+, 32o }

Equity Win Tie
UTG 33.23% 32.38% 0.85% { TT+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+ }
MP1 15.88% 14.77% 1.10% { TT-55, AQs-A2s, K4s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 98s, AQo-A4o, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
MP3 15.81% 14.71% 1.11% { TT-55, AQs-A2s, K4s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 98s, AQo-A4o, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
BU 20.36% 19.43% 0.93% { KdTd }
BB 14.72% 14.15% 0.57% { TT-22, AJs-A2s, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, AQo-A2o, K2o+, Q2o+, J2o+, T2o+, 92o+, 82o+, 72o+, 62o+, 52o+, 42o+, 32o }

Make UTG with a really nitty range and you're really sad to build a pot for him.

Equity Win Tie
UTG 36.92% 36.39% 0.54% { JJ+, AQs+, AKo }
MP1 15.33% 14.40% 0.93% { TT-55, AQs-A2s, K4s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 98s, AQo-A4o, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
MP3 15.33% 14.39% 0.94% { TT-55, AQs-A2s, K4s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 98s, AQo-A4o, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
BU 18.25% 17.46% 0.79% { KdTd }
BB 14.16% 13.65% 0.52% { TT-22, AJs-A2s, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, AQo-A2o, K2o+, Q2o+, J2o+, T2o+, 92o+, 82o+, 72o+, 62o+, 52o+, 42o+, 32o }

I think as I've moved away from 4/8 this is one of the problems I have when I go back to it - which I do once every six weeks or so. Against really loose, really bad 8/16 players this has become a slam dunk button three bet.

But even against that first range, a 3B looks marginally profitable. I guess in a new game of total unknowns, I would just flat.... but... it's so hard to flat such a pretty hand on the button when I play so much better than my opponents.

I wouldn't 3 bet the KT in any game unless we somehow knew UTG is an idiot and likewise the people that can't 3 bet the idiot can't have anything.

i think Doug's stoves are pretty accurate but I want to point out we are likely in much worse shape than they indicate. while our equity is close to breakeven it's because we are assuming the cold callers are idiots and are calling hands we dominate with KT, hands like K4s. T7s etc. while this is very likely in low stakes games it's also very likely the cold callers are only slightly bad which means they fold K9o to a raise but cold call KT, AT etc. when this is the case they fold all the hands that we dominate. cold call all the hands that dominate us (and we 3 bet them) and have live cards with the rest of their range which creates spots where we don't realize our full equity because we fold the then.

in short, if people are playing even somewhat reaonable then 3 betting is bad

I don't agree with that assessment at all. Most 4/8 cold callers are calling with plenty of garbage. They show up with K9o all the time. I think it's safe to assume they are calling plenty wide. Also, there are literally zero players that cold call with Q6s but draw the line at Q5s. I'm not sure how Doug arrived at his MP ranges, but I'd say the average 4/8 cold call range is wider.

Also, the average 4/8 player doesn't play exploitively. So if an idiot raises UTG, the average player's typical response with AJo next in the pot will still be to just call.

I agree with DM, that KT is horribly dominated by the stronger hand. Even if we dominate the weaker ranges, we do worse than h/c because flopping a K is often expensive 2nd best. You could look at flops with exactly a K or T and see how fun top pair or 2nd pair (with the T) are.

I think you are wrong about this. there exist plenty of 4-8 players that aren't great but aren't drooling idiots and against those players we are in generally terrible shape. if we are against a bunch of complete idiots then best case scenario us we are. basically break even in a spot we sotntn even realize all our equity

when best case scenario is 20% equity in a 5 way pot it's certainly not a slam dunk raise

Now the best case scenario is 20%? I guess you play in a different world than I do.

I would call KTs and T9s in those spots.

we have no reads on any players but are assuming bb defends 27o. utg opens kq and AJ rather than limping those and only raising stronger and we are assuming.bkth cold callers care are cold calling K4s, Q6s. K8o and A4o and you don't think that's best case scenario

we have no reads on any players but are assuming bb defends 27o. utg opens kq and AJ rather than limping those and only raising stronger and we are assuming.bkth cold callers care are cold calling K4s, Q6s. K8o and A4o and you don't think that's best case scenario

it's unrealistic to assume that 4 random poker players all.fall into the category of worst poker players alive.

Fold first hand. Snap call kts there

I already stated that I think it should be a call and not a three bet.

But I do not agree that 20% equity against four random opponents is our BEST CASE scenario. That implies there is no other situation where four random players could be playing looser/worse, on average.

yes if everyone is a clueless idiot we can 3 bet but I still don't think we will do to much better than 20% on average when the hand starts with an UTG raise.

maybee I mispoke. there will be instances when the best case scenario is over 20% but there will likewise be instances where we have under 20% (UTG only raises KK AA for example). collectively Id expect the best we can hope for to be about 20% vs random 4-8 players when one opens UTg and I think Doug's stoves do a good.job of illustrating that point.

keep in mind I'm the best 4-8 player in the world so I understand my player base

As always DougL, thank you for your thoughtful response.

This was pretty much my thinking. But my superiority cognitive bias can be a costly b!7ch that too often leads me astray.

These were my first thoughts, too. But in the not too far back of my mind was this: "In order of importance, calling first-in and cold calling a raise instead of reraising (or folding) are the biggest errors." Philip Newall on Exploitive Adjustments Pre-flop. The Intelligent Poker Player, p. 41