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Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

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Old 03-11-2017, 04:20 PM   #1176
rodeo
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
I'll rephrase what I said. I would 3 bet a very laggy CO with JTo. I probably wouldn't against you.



I would fold close to always from the SB with JTo even though the buttons range is wider. I think being OOP is too problemic with J high unsuited.


You most certainly should 3 bet my CO open with JTo when you're the BTN as well as, 3 bet my BTN open with JTo when you're the SB.
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Old 03-11-2017, 04:27 PM   #1177
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
ty.



In before 100k views. Awesome thread. Thanks for doing this everyone.



----



"Pop quiz hot shot."



How about buying the button vs a straddler? Does our ev go up or down relative to buying the button no straddle configuration?



How about posting 1bb+.5bbdead in the cutoff vs a dead small blind, a big blind, and a straddler 7 handed?



Four limps and a small blind to you in the big blind with 77/88/J9s. No peeking at Leader's charts, which are a bit loose imo, until after you think about it a bit.



Couldn't help myself.


I haven't given this much thought.

1. Seems like our EV would go down.

2. I don't understand the question.

3. Raise 77 and 88 (I'd check 66). Check J9s (I'd raise JTs).
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Old 03-11-2017, 05:12 PM   #1178
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Originally Posted by rodeo View Post
I haven't given this much thought.

1. Seems like our EV would go down.
In most small stakes games the table will be too loose/passive vs our posted blind. The straddle makes them play more correctly by accident, so agree.
Quote:
2. I don't understand the question.
I think Bob is saying that we posted our full missed blind in the CO, so the normal big blind plus a dead small blind. Is the straddle worse for us, even if for some reason the SB is dead? I think it is, for the same reason as 1. Basically, live players aren't aggressive enough vs. this larger ante. Anything that forces them to be more aggressive (make our blind investment worse) is bad for us.

If the table were really tight vs. the straddle, I guess it could be better. Let's make everyone at the table terrified of the straddle, so they play KK+ except for the straddler who is more normal. At this terrible table, we're getting a somewhat free shot at the blinds in a game with a huge ante. Anyone who plays is playing a monster faceup, which is still OK.
Quote:
3. Raise 77 and 88 (I'd check 66). Check J9s (I'd raise JTs).
Seems reasonable. Could be that people who play worse than you do postflop shouldn't build a pot OOP. Seems like 77+ is a good PP raising range, but maybe some people should pass on 7's?

How do you feel about T9s and 98s?
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Old 03-12-2017, 11:46 AM   #1179
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Pre flop check up posts.

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Originally Posted by DougL View Post
How do you feel about T9s and 98s?


I raise them and feel excited. Then I x/f the flop.
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Old 03-12-2017, 01:33 PM   #1180
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo View Post
You most certainly should 3 bet my CO open with JTo when you're the BTN as well as, 3 bet my BTN open with JTo when you're the SB.
There is a whale in the BB and we have J high oop. Our hand is marginal to begin with. I get the button three, but not the three from the SB. Especially against a good player.
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Old 03-13-2017, 12:32 PM   #1181
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
ty.

In before 100k views. Awesome thread. Thanks for doing this everyone.

----

"Pop quiz hot shot."

How about buying the button vs a straddler? Does our ev go up or down relative to buying the button no straddle configuration?

How about posting 1bb+.5bbdead in the cutoff vs a dead small blind, a big blind, and a straddler 7 handed?

Four limps and a small blind to you in the big blind with 77/88/J9s. No peeking at Leader's charts, which are a bit loose imo, until after you think about it a bit.

Couldn't help myself.
Thank you Bob for your consistent input and great analysis!
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Old 03-16-2017, 08:18 PM   #1182
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Here's a weird one. 4/8 half kill. I'm in the CO, kill is on and posted 2 seats to my right. Everyone folds and the killer accidentally mucks her cards, then folded to me.

I open 76o. Too much or is this almost an any 2 cards spot?
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Old 03-16-2017, 08:34 PM   #1183
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Dead money makes it a raise imo. Dead money also means people call down kind'a lite. Hope they miss.
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Old 03-16-2017, 10:46 PM   #1184
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I think I'd raise blind there.
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Old 03-16-2017, 11:28 PM   #1185
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
I think I'd raise blind there.
Agree. Pretend to look, fire in a raise. Play wide range poker. Profit.
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Old 03-17-2017, 11:04 AM   #1186
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
Agree. Pretend to look, fire in a raise. Play wide range poker. Profit.
The only way I'm folding is if ILP is sitting to my left.

Other wise, raise it up
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:13 PM   #1187
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Good solid TAG opens button. We are next in SB. The BB is a tight reg. Assume a 45-50% open for the button.

My 3 bet range looks like this..A7o+ Axs+ KTo+ QTo+ 44+ 9Ts+ K9s+

Absent from my range is hands like 67s and JTo which some have mentioned are raises in similar situations.

I"ve been away from the game for a bit and would like to know if my ranges are reasonable. Would you add or delete hands? How much wider might you open if the button was a poor post flop player?

Thanks for your responses!
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Old 03-25-2017, 04:27 AM   #1188
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

The less likely the BB is to continue, the more I like hands like A5o and 33.

I think JTo is a somewhat crappy raise, and the two hands I mentioned above are much better. JTo won't overrealize as much as you think, since it's offsuit (meaning it only flops bad flush draws on monotone flops), and it's pushing towards the bottom of villain's open range. Suited connectors just play better than offsuit ones (assuming the offsuit connectors don't make good pairs, so QJo > 98s for sure).
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Old 03-25-2017, 11:01 AM   #1189
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
The less likely the BB is to continue, the more I like hands like A5o and 33.

I think JTo is a somewhat crappy raise, and the two hands I mentioned above are much better. JTo won't overrealize as much as you think, since it's offsuit (meaning it only flops bad flush draws on monotone flops), and it's pushing towards the bottom of villain's open range. Suited connectors just play better than offsuit ones (assuming the offsuit connectors don't make good pairs, so QJo > 98s for sure).
Thanks Jdr!

If the BB is a huge fish and will often call two cold do we tighten up our 3 bet range or construct a SB cold calling range or both?
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Old 03-25-2017, 01:14 PM   #1190
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I see no good reason to cold call pre. Someone can beg to differ.

I'd probably tighten up on weak showdown, as it's much less likely we win unimproved, plus 2 opponents kill our equity. Example, A5o:

Code:
PokerCruncher-Advanced-iPhone V.8.2.1

(Equity,  Win,  Tie)
Player 1:  35.4%  33.4%  4.48%  {22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J6s+, T7s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, 54s, A2o+, K5o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o}
Player 2:  35.6%  32.7%  6.24%  {JJ-22, AQs-A2s, K2s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo}
Player 3:  29.0%  25.3%  7.81%  [As5c]

Board:  [? ? ? ? ?]
Deal To:  River
Dead Cards:  {}

Monte Carlo Simulation: 360000 trials
Now, though, hands like 98s become defensible 3 bets. Notice how the h/c equity is actually slightly better:

Code:
PokerCruncher-Advanced-iPhone V.8.2.1

(Equity,  Win,  Tie)
Player 1:  33.7%  32.2%  3.25%  {22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J6s+, T7s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, 54s, A2o+, K5o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o}
Player 2:  35.9%  34.4%  3.13%  {JJ-22, AQs-A2s, K2s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo}
Player 3:  30.3%  29.6%  1.62%  [8c9c]

Board:  [? ? ? ? ?]
Deal To:  River
Dead Cards:  {}

Monte Carlo Simulation: 360000 trials
This + fold equity does cause a shift in my SB approach. If I'm likely to be HU, I'd much rather have A5o and try to get it to showdown. Against a fishy BB like above, the value of our ace plummets, but hands like middling connectors gain.
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Old 03-26-2017, 12:20 AM   #1191
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
Good solid TAG opens button. We are next in SB. The BB is a tight reg. Assume a 45-50% open for the button.

My 3 bet range looks like this..A7o+ Axs+ KTo+ QTo+ 44+ 9Ts+ K9s+

Absent from my range is hands like 67s and JTo which some have mentioned are raises in similar situations.

I"ve been away from the game for a bit and would like to know if my ranges are reasonable. Would you add or delete hands? How much wider might you open if the button was a poor post flop player?

Thanks for your responses!


44+, A2s+, K5s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A5o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo

This is my default range vs. a 45-50% BTN open.
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Old 03-26-2017, 08:54 AM   #1192
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo View Post
44+, A2s+, K5s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A5o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo

This is my default range vs. a 45-50% BTN open.
Thanks for sharing Rodeo!

Some of the hands that you 3 bet which I don't have between 40-45% equity. What makes these hands worth playing considering we are OOP?

I get adding A5o, K5s and K9o to my range.
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Old 03-26-2017, 11:03 AM   #1193
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
Thanks for sharing Rodeo!



Some of the hands that you 3 bet which I don't have between 40-45% equity. What makes these hands worth playing considering we are OOP?



I get adding A5o, K5s and K9o to my range.


There are hands in my range that may not on paper have enough equity to 3 bet on their own, but don't bring down the equity of my overall range enough to omit them. What they lack in hot/cold equity they make up for with board coverage and playability. They also strengthen the top of my range. My opponents think they have to call down more because, "well, he can have 67s." As long as my bluffing/value bet frequencies are balanced, the few extra "fun" hands added in will do fine. If I start bluffing too much though, things can get a little messy.
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Old 03-26-2017, 11:47 AM   #1194
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo View Post
There are hands in my range that may not on paper have enough equity to 3 bet on their own, but don't bring down the equity of my overall range enough to omit them. What they lack in hot/cold equity they make up for with board coverage and playability. They also strengthen the top of my range. My opponents think they have to call down more because, "well, he can have 67s." As long as my bluffing/value bet frequencies are balanced, the few extra "fun" hands added in will do fine. If I start bluffing too much though, things can get a little messy.
Great explanation!

Thank you!
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Old 03-26-2017, 11:58 AM   #1195
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Rodeo, what if your opponent ignores those near 0 ev hands and maybe value bets a little thinner and bluffs a little less and doesn't overplay enough to make up for the small loss of preflop ev?

Then would you tighten up? I totally agree though that you can probably profitably play those hands at the bottom of your range vs the majority of lineups. This is because I think you're good at poker and I think you're smart enough to play in lots of games where the avg button raising range is >50%.
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Old 03-26-2017, 12:06 PM   #1196
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Also I don't cold call anything there because 45% to 50% button raising range is too tight to lend enough ev to hands like 97s and Kxs wants to 3 bet or fold preflop. So a good coldcalling range should be pretty narrow. Such a narrow range will become a liability vs a good player on the button. If coldcalling is profitable with anything the gain in BB/100 is gonna be negligible.
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Old 03-26-2017, 12:08 PM   #1197
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
Rodeo, what if your opponent ignores those near 0 ev hands and maybe value bets a little thinner and bluffs a little less and doesn't overplay enough to make up for the small loss of preflop ev?

Then would you tighten up

My range is set up to be unexploitable. So as long as I don't F it up post flop, I don't necessarily care what my opponent does. That's an over simplification, but my opponent would have to make some extreme adjustments for me to start making my own.
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Old 03-26-2017, 12:11 PM   #1198
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Either you're opening with loss leaders that are unprofitable preflop or you think you've found the optimal preflop 3 bet here? You can't have it both ways.
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Old 03-26-2017, 12:13 PM   #1199
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Or you think you've found the maximally exploitive preflop range? Sick.
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Old 03-26-2017, 12:19 PM   #1200
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I've already said too much.
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