Ah, thank you for putting that on a bottom shelf for me.

So I didn't take my pot odds far enough. If it's capped then the conclusion preflop is it's 3 bets to me in the BB with 13.5 already in... 4.5:1. (No rake considered)

(...and I see I misunderstood Hip's "calling two" and miscalculated the odds in my previous post anyway. Those odds were 5.25:1)

But what really matters here, knowing my BB J8s gives me about 20% hot/cold equity vs the field: a) The immediate pot odds? b) or the fact that I represent 25% of the pot post-flop? There's also the factor that my J8s plays okay multiway (though agreed, not as good as JTs)

J8s is still garbage facing a raise and 3bet


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This is my new pre-flop strategy pep talk. I think most ameatures lack the discipline to first flesh-out a strategy, and second to stick with it, and become whimsical creatures. It's important to adapt to the game while maintaining discipline, a difficult balance.



Don't tolerate losers pre, and play to win the entire time.

Not to worry, Hip. I still agree with you! (Remember, I did fold). But in the face of dogmatic assertions against playing it, it is interesting to me that there have been what seem to be some respectable arguments here for calling with it from the BB. If it can be demonstrated the odds may be there, it plays okay multiway, etc...

I'm tip-of-the-iceberg new to thinking about the game like most of you do. I'd like to get to the point when I do or don't play a hand in a situation, it's from an understanding of why it's +EV or -EV rather than simply resting on "a really knowledgable poster I respect on 2+2 told me I was dumb to even consider it."

So, I promise to have some more dumb questions. I may even think I know the answer but want to practice thinking through it.

The only argument for playing the J8s here is that you might get lucky. They may use different phrases, and explanations, but at the end, semantically what they are saying is, "OMG you have J8s, 1/3 discount, you may get lucky!"

JTs > J8s. Doesn't seem like a huge difference.

But jts is soooo much stronger


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I think both will be in an equity deficit here unless players in the hand are confirmed nuts. Even then, I'm not exactly thrilled slamming bets in there in the worst possible position.

If the action was EP opens, megafish cold calls, late position 3 bets, megafish calls SB, we can probably slam 2 in from the BB with JTs. J9s is probably defensible. J8s is still too loose.

Putting 2 bets in a 10.5 bet pot or 3 bets in 13.5 bet pot we are getting a very good price. The problem is we want a playable had without much RIO, so we aren't stuck calling off bad too often.

The big advantage that JTs has over J8s is that it makes twice as many straights and they are all nut straights where some of J8s aren't. Those nut straight hands are where you get to pile in extra bets. How many bets you want to poker in w/J8 on KQT9 board vs a raiser and a 3 better? Lots less than JT on KQ9 board.

I have no idea what this thread is about, but I will say that if three tight players raise/3/cap I will happily call 4 cold OTB with JTs, whereas if it goes raise/call/call I fold J8s.

Fairly simple situation that came up last night that created a long discussion between me and one of the villains (a fellow 2+2 poster)

In the BB w/ KQs

V1 is UTG+2 and open raises. He is a TAG and I have his range as all PP >66, Unsuited Broadways, Suited Aces above A5, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+ and T9s, 89s and 87s.

V2 is on the Button and calls. V2 is a total LAG. LAG isn't even the correct term, guy is playing any Ace, any suited connectors, honestly throw in anything suited. "It was suited tattooed" on his right forearm. He will get aggressive with better hands so we can rule out any pocket pair, any suited or unsuited broadways or suited Aces above A5.

Action is on me, do I call or three bet?

I call. The flop is going to change equities tremendously and you have a disguised hand that can be good for getting extra bets in when ahead. If you 3b you need to lead most flops OOP when you might not have the best hand.

I don't think it matters much, but I call as I do with all hands. Other things: 1) is this ten handed?; 2.) I think your range for V1 is too wide.

Easy 3b if described ranges are correct.

PS No, you don't have to cbet anywhere close to 100%

PPS specify how many damn players are in the hand if you're going to say "UTG+2'

I'd rather just call w/ KQs. If you have a three betting strategy, then KQs is a decent hand to throw in there (strong, deceptive, connects with boards that are normally not great for your range like Q63, etc).

Very rusty
Passive 40 game
I'm in the BB
UTG limps
B raises
SB calls

What is the worst king we call with?


Another one in the SB

UTG+2 raises
Schulman 3b HJ
I have JJ

Do we prefer a 4b or call?

I call any king and cap.

Do you 4b if it's a 5b cap?

I thought I made a right fold with my K

Concur

You guys are defending K2o here?

K2s, K9o

Leaning towards 3bet, V1 is not really very taggy to me. Seems laggy. Raise for straight equity.

add:
The TLAG has 34.544% {A5s,A6s,A7s,A8s,A9,AT,AJ,AQ,AK,KQ,KJ,KT,QJ,QTs,Q9 s,K9s,K8s,66,77,88,99,TT,JJ,QQ,KK,AA,JTs,J9s,98s,8 7s}
The LAG has 28.697% {AA-22,AxKx-Ax2x,AxKy-Ax2y,KxQx-Kx2x,KxQy-Kx9y,QxJx-Qx2x,QxJy-Qx9y,JxTx-Jx2x,JxTy,Jx9y,Tx9x-Tx2x,Tx9y,9x8x-9x2x,8x7x-8x2x,7x6x-7x2x,6x5x-6x2x,5x4x-5x2x,4x3x,4x2x,3x2x}
The HERO has 36.759% {KQs}

XxYx means same suit
XxYy means different suits.

PPT Odds Oracle

Yes

KQo according to range calculations is borderline equity play, as is KJs (did not expect) as well as ATo, and 66+. The value is so thin that it's not worth three-betting ATo,KJs,66,77,because you're oop anyway, but I am 3-betting KQs,ATs,88+ for sure.

If it goes Raise > 3 bet > cap

you should fold everything but AA-QQ AKs

even AKo, if the capper is old man river, or even the 3 bettor is old man river, I'm folding JJ and AQs and AKo

calling 4 called with JTs is terrible


If it goes raise, call, call, I can't call fast enough with JTs, I would 3bet before I folded here

Easy call, you have the best check raise position vs. 3 players.