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Old 01-15-2015, 08:03 PM   #76
mongidig
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Loose passive co limps, TAG button raises(he has a very wide iso range), folded to you in BB.

What's the minimum pocket pair, Axo, Axs, suited connector, broadway, you are 3 betting?

My answer: 66, A9o, A7s, JTs, KJo.
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Old 01-15-2015, 10:46 PM   #77
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
Loose passive co limps, TAG button raises(he has a very wide iso range), folded to you in BB.

What's the minimum pocket pair, Axo, Axs, suited connector, broadway, you are 3 betting?

My answer: 66, A9o, A7s, JTs, KJo.
That seems fine. Will he cbet 100%? If so it's fine to make smoov
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Old 01-16-2015, 08:11 AM   #78
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
That seems fine. Will he cbet 100%? If so it's fine to make smoov
He has recently started to check back some flops. He checked 88 on JTx HU. He also checked A7 on 569 flop 3way. He checked once HU and gave up to a turn bet HU.

If he opens the button and it's folded to me in BB, do I adjust by 3 betting pre instead of flatting my whole range? Maybe still flat, and CR the turn since he does bet a lot after the flop is checked through. His range is fairly weak here, so I can wait with value hands and some bluffs.
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Old 01-19-2015, 06:46 AM   #79
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
I'm on board with completing some trashy hands with several players in. In this spot I play quite a bit tighter. My worst hands would look something like this....J7o, T8o, 97o, 86o, 75o, 65o, 54o. Perhaps this is way too tight and I have discovered a leak.
I'm just now reading through the thread and I want to respond to a lot of posts. I feel this deserves some immediate attention though. We are against loose-passive players who are prob kind of sticky and unlikely to define their hand -- they might play top pair, a gut shot, or ace high the same way.

Honestly, I'd prob fold every hand you listed in this situation. You're fighting for a dinky pot, out of position, with a weak hand against opponents that prob won't fold the flop often and won't give you action when you hit big either. In my experience, getting involved here is a good way to bleed/spew chips and the reward is rarely worth the effort.
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Old 01-19-2015, 07:10 AM   #80
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
4 players limp, laggy CO raises. He's raising any pair, mid suited connectors, QJo+ etc.
he is c betting close to 100% even MW.
The blinds are fairly loose.

I'm on the button. What should I do with these hands...KJo, ATo, 56s, A2s.
Folding the first two most of the time; calling the second two most of the time and raising some of the time.

If the other players are sticky and you can't narrow the field by raising I think both KJo and ATo play kind of poorly in this spot -- even on the button.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bravos1 View Post
I'm a bit surprised at the amount of "calls" in the first hand. I pretty happily muck this PF.
In reference to the K4s hand from the first post. I agree; folding is fine here. I don't think you're passing up much value. I don't think raising or calling is terrible though... if you really know your opponents' tendencies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
Here's one that I thought was kinda close at the time:

10 handed 4 bet cap:

standard tag raises utg at a loose and wild table, everyone calls and I'm on the button with QJs.
I think calling is fine, but I'd just jam it here and hope someone caps it. GAMBOL.

Last edited by TheDarkKnight; 01-19-2015 at 07:20 AM. Reason: combining mutliple posts
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Old 01-21-2015, 09:09 AM   #81
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post
I'm just now reading through the thread and I want to respond to a lot of posts. I feel this deserves some immediate attention though. We are against loose-passive players who are prob kind of sticky and unlikely to define their hand -- they might play top pair, a gut shot, or ace high the same way.

Honestly, I'd prob fold every hand you listed in this situation. You're fighting for a dinky pot, out of position, with a weak hand against opponents that prob won't fold the flop often and won't give you action when you hit big either. In my experience, getting involved here is a good way to bleed/spew chips and the reward is rarely worth the effort.
I would like to here more discussion about completing from the SB after several limps. I see a lot of good players playing a lot of junk here.
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Old 01-21-2015, 01:41 PM   #82
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
I would like to here more discussion about completing from the SB after several limps. I see a lot of good players playing a lot of junk here.
After 3 limpers, assuming the BB doesn't raise, you will be getting 9-1 on your call, so purely based on odds, you need 11.1% equity to call. I just did 2 quick Pokerstove calculations with 72o. Against 4 others playing total random hands, you have 10.75% equity. Against 4 others playing the top 50% of hands, you have 10.9% equity. At worst, completing the SB against several limps is a small mistake.
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Old 01-21-2015, 01:50 PM   #83
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Playing in the low limit games, I often run across players who are extremely passive. I can't be 100% sure of their preflop raising range, but for some players it is exactly AA/KK. My question is - what do you do with a good hand when one of those players raise?

I had 2 examples recently. First, a nice old lady who had not raised in the 2 hours I've played with her raises from MP, and I have TT right after her. I chose to raise, but if she really is that tight with her raises, does anyone fold? Or call and hope to bring in others?

Second example, UTG playing 50+% of his hands, but rarely raising preflop, raises and it folds to me in MP - I 3! with AKs. Thinking back on the hand, I'd be surprised if his range is much wider than QQ+. AKs has to be a 3! (which I did), but what do you do with other hands close to that?
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Old 01-21-2015, 02:00 PM   #84
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveopie View Post
After 3 limpers, assuming the BB doesn't raise, you will be getting 9-1 on your call, so purely based on odds, you need 11.1% equity to call. I just did 2 quick Pokerstove calculations with 72o. Against 4 others playing total random hands, you have 10.75% equity. Against 4 others playing the top 50% of hands, you have 10.9% equity. At worst, completing the SB against several limps is a small mistake.
Wouldn't most of those people have declared they have non-premium hands. Not saying that 72o or 43o care, but as an improvement to your stove work, be sure to recognize that the best hands can be taken out of limping ranges.
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Old 01-21-2015, 02:10 PM   #85
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveopie View Post
Playing in the low limit games, I often run across players who are extremely passive. I can't be 100% sure of their preflop raising range, but for some players it is exactly AA/KK. My question is - what do you do with a good hand when one of those players raise?
Exploit them in some way. Also, you're using "good hand" as an absolute. KQ is a good hand, in an absolute sense. It particularly hates a villain who has KK+. Once you have this information, you should correctly adjust. Let's say you saw AA in the villain's hand, isn't knowing her hand worth something? Is it enough?

Quote:
First, a nice old lady who had not raised in the 2 hours I've played with her raises from MP, and I have TT right after her. I chose to raise, but if she really is that tight with her raises, does anyone fold? Or call and hope to bring in others?
2 hours is about 60 hands. You put her raising range on KK+ why? If your answer is she has shown QQ and AKs that she limped, that's one thing. If she did that and then wondered aloud how someone who raised JJ, that's more. If she just was a normal limpy player who didn't raise in 60 hands, that's another.

Do I fold? Based on a small sample, that's insane. If she flashed AA, I'd think about a ton of other things before folding. If the table is loose, calling and expecting the pot to go 7 ways could be expert.

Quote:
Second example, UTG playing 50+% of his hands, but rarely raising preflop, raises and it folds to me in MP - I 3! with AKs. Thinking back on the hand, I'd be surprised if his range is much wider than QQ+. AKs has to be a 3! (which I did), but what do you do with other hands close to that?
I think you need to consider stuff. I've played with tight former props who do really only raise with QQ+. How does AKs do vs QQ+. Also, by isolating yourself against a hand range that strong, what do you gain? It could be that 3 betting is the best play, and it could be that calling is better. It depends on things outside your exact hand.

Other hands? Think about KQs in this spot or QJs. Compare them to 87s and 98s.
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Old 01-21-2015, 02:58 PM   #86
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
I would like to here more discussion about completing from the SB after several limps. I see a lot of good players playing a lot of junk here.
To be clear, in the specific example, two loose-passives limped. If several players are in, I'm calling a lot more hands, particularly the ones you listed. But if 4 people limp in, I'm still folding hands like K3o, Q4o, and worse.
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Old 01-21-2015, 03:04 PM   #87
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Originally Posted by daveopie View Post
After 3 limpers, assuming the BB doesn't raise, you will be getting 9-1 on your call, so purely based on odds, you need 11.1% equity to call. I just did 2 quick Pokerstove calculations with 72o. Against 4 others playing total random hands, you have 10.75% equity. Against 4 others playing the top 50% of hands, you have 10.9% equity. At worst, completing the SB against several limps is a small mistake.
I disagree. Whatever favorable pot odds you may be receiving now can be negated by your terrible hand, terrible position, and the fact you have to face future betting. There is just no way any player here is showing a profit with 72o from the small blind.
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Old 01-23-2015, 01:39 PM   #88
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Wouldn't most of those people have declared they have non-premium hands. Not saying that 72o or 43o care, but as an improvement to your stove work, be sure to recognize that the best hands can be taken out of limping ranges.
Yeah, I know I could have done a better stove calculation - this was done super fast. The question that was asked was how wide do you complete the SB after several limpers. I just wanted to show that getting 9-1 it is difficult to create a stove calculation for any hand that is much worse than that. There are other factors to consider, but having an extremely wide range in the SB after several limpers must be correct.
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Old 01-23-2015, 01:47 PM   #89
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Exploit them in some way.
...
Do I fold? Based on a small sample, that's insane. If she flashed AA, I'd think about a ton of other things before folding. If the table is loose, calling and expecting the pot to go 7 ways could be expert.
Thanks. I have a "rule" I follow that says never cold call a raise, but your point is that pretty much all rules have exceptions. Some rules you need more reasons to deviate from them, so be careful when taking a non standard line. But having a rule is no excuse for not thinking through a situation to pick the best option.
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Old 01-24-2015, 10:33 AM   #90
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

People who only play super-premium hands are always cursing the schooling effect of small stakes games. Nits hate this, because they've read HPFAP and think every poker game should be a battle for the blinds and that isolation plays are pure poker. Or they're just sad, nitty people. The rule about never cold calling was invented to help prevent the natural tendency of a beginner to just call and see, self isolating against a good hand. Having the rule puts him to the test, if he can't find a raise he must fold.

Let's think about a loose or very loose game. Things have changed. If the game is loose and passive, raisers can still be marked with very good hands -- a nit raises his top 3% and folds the rest, while a loose super-passive calls 50% while raising the same 3%. Let's say you're in a great loose game where people don't care about raises. Our 3% guy finds a raise. Your choices are now fold, call and play a 7+ way pot for 2 bets, or raise and play a 7+ way pot for 3 or 4 bets. It is hard to have hand vs hand edges vs that 3% range (and it could be a 1% range vs some). You have poor relative position because you follow him, so it could be harder to greatly profit. You do have position on a strong hand, and if he gives out info... However, there are plenty of hands that do fine against QQ+ in an 8 way pot.

Lots of text. Rules exist for beginners in order to cover up mistakes that new players make often. When you don't understand a situation, follow the rule. Even later, you might use the rule as a touchstone, but real awareness removes them. If you play in 8 way pots all the time, raise or fold is a silly rule.
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Old 01-24-2015, 11:22 AM   #91
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Full kill 9 handed..8/16

Ep opens...his range is TT+ AQo+ KQs+ AJs+...he is straightforward post.....if he puts in action he's got it...he chases with any piece to the river.

The next player raises all in for 9 more dollars.....he's attempted to go all in the last two hours...he is tight older guy...straightforward. His raises are usually very tight....I suspect this is more a tournament all in range but tilted more towards the strong side.

I am next to act in the CO and I am the killer. I have posted 16 dollars. The players yet to act can still rearaise since the all in player put in more than half the bet. I will have to post another 16 dollar blind if I win. I suspect the BB will call since he rarely sits out a hand.

The button and SB are both tight passive.

I don't have a read on whether the EP opener is planning to rearaise...I'm not quite sure he knows he is allowed too.

How does the threat of a reraise plus the fact that I will have to post another kill if I win affect my odds and my decision to call?
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Old 01-24-2015, 11:43 AM   #92
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
I would like to here more discussion about completing from the SB after several limps. I see a lot of good players playing a lot of junk here.
After three limps I do not fold any hand that can flop a straight, flush, pair of queens, or is T5o+
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Old 01-26-2015, 08:44 AM   #93
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

The game is temporarily 5 handed due to walkers. Assume we have no specific read on TAG.

TAG opens UTG...folded to me in HJ. I have KsJc...BB is tight. What Axo and suited connector hands are you 3 betting here? How about pocket pairs?

Do you think an unknown TAGs range differs in a temporarily short game compared to a similar situation in a 6 max game? Generally speaking.
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Old 01-26-2015, 08:48 AM   #94
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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After three limps I do not fold any hand that can flop a straight, flush, pair of queens, or is T5o+
You call even the weakest Q's?

I've had a feeling I've been too nitty in this spot.

How much would you tighten up these ranges in a high rake game?
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Old 01-26-2015, 06:42 PM   #95
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I'm not calling T6o, 95o, 84o, 73o, 62o, Q7o-Q2o, and a whole ton of hands he's recommending. I highly, highly doubt those are profitable hands - even with 3 limpers. I guess I could be wrong, but.... 😕

If you think you are playing too tight, widening your small blind range to include trash seems like a bizarre place to start loosening up.
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Old 01-26-2015, 07:01 PM   #96
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
The game is temporarily 5 handed due to walkers. Assume we have no specific read on TAG.

TAG opens UTG...folded to me in HJ. I have KsJc...BB is tight. What Axo and suited connector hands are you 3 betting here? How about pocket pairs?

Do you think an unknown TAGs range differs in a temporarily short game compared to a similar situation in a 6 max game? Generally speaking.
I would expect a solid TAG to be drastically opening up his raising range when the game gets short -- even temporarily.

5-handed I'd 3b the KJo. I'd 3b 66+, JTs+ as a default. I think the lower suited connectors play kind of poorly short-handed since they never win show downs unimproved and short handed is very showdown heavy.

Obviously you have to adjust to how your opponents are playing. If they are super sticky, I'm taking the middling suited connectors and smaller pairs out of my raising range - but occasionally mixing them in to switch it up. If they are folding a lot (rare) then I'll start adding hands.
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Old 01-26-2015, 07:04 PM   #97
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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If you think you are playing too tight, widening your small blind range to include trash seems like a bizarre place to start loosening up.
To be fair, the exact question was "what do you play in this exact situation" and Jesse said X. He didn't say, "if you are playing too tight, this is the first thing to fix".

I also think that defining hands as good or trash is counterproductive. After a ToM opens UTG, a bunch of really good hands are basically worthless. After 6 limps and sitting in a 2/3 SB game with a passive BB, there is no unplayable hand. There must be some number of Z:1 where you can't fold anything, right? We can argue if Z=9 is that spot, but Jesse said no -- he went with just a bit tighter, wanting a little high card, a little str8, or a little flush potential. Hot/cold, you can't come up with a hand as a big enough dog to fold, so he's already counting negative value of position.
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Old 01-26-2015, 07:13 PM   #98
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I'm arguing tighter than that. Even if 4 people limp in and we are getting 11 to 1... the pot is still small, the recommended hands play poorly, and we have the worst position. I'll pass. I'm not going to let pot odds dictate my action when everything else is unfavorable. If the pot is larger it becomes much more attractive to loosen up.
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Old 01-26-2015, 07:18 PM   #99
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

OK, you've argued it. No idea how to draw any conclusion. Having played a bit of shorthanded and having become loose/sticky in my blinds, seeing that many limpers makes me see a huge overlay. Basically, they're all terrible and have meh hands. I've got part of a bet in the middle. I can afford to lose some post flop to having a hand that makes 2nd best and bad position, that's what overlay is for.
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Old 01-26-2015, 07:30 PM   #100
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I get what you're saying. However, all the negatives and the marginal situations that arise when getting involved make the overlay highly unattractive to me. It's just not worth fighting for in a dinky pot.
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