On the river he has the nuts. So don't fold.


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Well ya, we don't fold the nuts and we don't fold a K or a Q. We fold a 6s though.

No actually you don't fold any river.

On the turn he check called with KQ on a AKQx board (3 hearts)

If the river is 6s, you check call again

It's not like the turn got capped 3
Ways and we know we are drawing.


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Jdr said fold river unimproved if raised at any point. This is correct. If you really check-call turn, you should not check-fold river, but that is not the same thing. If you bet and are raised either turn or river here, you are toast (but call turn hoping to improve).

Missed that point

I'm not folding against everything player when I bet and they raise here

However, if it goes I bet, call, and then a raise. You are losing 99.99% and can fold.

Sorry for the confusion


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Much better.

Yeah we never fold if we decide to monstrously underrep our hand by checking turn.

This is a very good post, thank you for it.

I'll confess I clicked on this thread by mistake but I noticed a few posts back someone posted the equivalent of "if you raise AJo and KQo UTG you should raise them from the blinds when limped to."

I don't 100% agree with that.

There's always a positional dependence for what you raise, and while it's arguably shallower in weaker games, there's still a significance between UTG and SB.

It could be argued that the difference is not enough, that AJo is so strong of a raise UTG that you can lose two positional notches and still have an edge. And maybe someone did argue that. But it's not unreasonable to have a range that you open UTG but complete from the SB after many limpers, and if anyone argued that, I wouldn't immediately dismiss the argument.

FWIW, I RWPL both of those from the SB.

Let's say we raise UTG and 6 players call and magically the blinds fold. Positionally, this is similar to 6 players limping to you In the SB. The difference, though, is informational. The ranges of the players in the second scenario are going to be wider and weaker on average. The ranges of the players in the first scenario are going to be narrower and stronger on average. Any hand that's a profitable raise UTG is going to be profitable raise from the SB when 6 players limp to you. If not, then you probably shouldn't be raising it UTG.

What hand do you raise UTG that you don't raise from the SB after 6 limpers?

I'd only tighten my preflop raising requirements slightly in tight passive games from the small blind. This would take a really good read. Otherwise, equity edge vs bad players = rawr.

To bolster your point, you're using the most unlikely example of what could happen when you raise UTG (many people in position to you call, and the blinds, who have worst position but something already invested, fold).

The last sentence is definitely not true. You raise with a certain expectation which is weighted by all possible outcomes. It's possible that a subset of those outcomes are EV- whereas the aggregate of all possible outcomes is EV+. When you raise AJo UTG, some percentage of the time (even if small) everyone folds and you take the blinds. Some percentage of the time one person coldcalls and a blind calls and you go 3-way with middle position. If those scenarios are more profitable and more common than 6 people coldcalling, you can be totally justified in opening but not raising with 6 previous limpers.

To answer your question, I personally don't have such of a range (unless I'm being a dick, in which case the answer may be something like 66- 65s-, but that's more about having a ****-you UTG opening range than a tight SB raising range). But I understand why people do (or might) have that gap on a non-dick basis. As a matter of fact, there are scenarios in which I believe someone could have SB RWPL ranges wider than UTG open ranges.

What is RWPL?

Raise With Previous Limpers.

Go back and read my posts that started this discussion. I've already gone over all of this.

The hands we choose to raise from UTG are chosen partly because they can handle being in big multiway pots.

Yes, but they are also chosen partially for other reasons, which cannot happen when you are in the blinds. Callipygian did a better job at making my point than I did though.

If you agree with my position, but disagree with the exact details of how I've presented it, that's fine. I don't get why you think it's important to point that out.

I'm just trying to point out when terrible advice is given in this thread. Advising players to limp along from the SB with AJo and KQo after any number of limpers isn't great advice. It seems like you agree. Getting nitpicky with my post doesn't help anyone or serve much of a purpose IMO.

That's true, but that doesn't mean we should limp along with AJo or KQo.

with AJo, you raising UTG to limit the field to2-4 way.

Once six people limp in, I am just checking with AJo (raising AQo)

I don't want to make this a huge ass pot with a TP had OOP vs 6 ppl.

Its not a terrible mistake or anything, just my preference

The difference is between making the right decision and accidentally making the right decision.

Let's say I advise someone to raise AA UTG because nobody's folding anyway. Right conclusion, wrong reasoning.

It doesn't seem like you read my posts at all. Where did I suggest that the reason for raising AJo and KQo from the SB after 6 limpers is because those hands are in your UTG range?

To be frank, you're absolutely right that I didn't read your posts and I wasn't even sure it was you who posted it until you made such a fuss about it, but here it is.

in the sentence you quoted i didn't say, "the REASON you should raise AJo and KQo is BECAUSE you would raise them from UTG." the only reason i even brought up the fact that those hands are in most people's UTG range was to use as a reference to make my point that there seems to be a logical disconnect in a player's mind who wants to raise those hands UTG, but not raise them from the SB after a bunch of limpers.

this was the only information i offered about my reasoning to raise. again, where did i come to the "right conclusion" by way of "wrong reasoning"?

Yeah, you're right.

Loose passive open limps middle position. Loosish somewhat aggressive player is big blind, loose passive player is sb. Folded to me with 22 on button and I call.