Live $4/8 game, I have 88 in small blind. Middle position loose passive player open limps. LP maniac raises. I make it 3 bets. Am I being overly optimistic, here? I know the loose passive player will call 2 more bets, and the maniac isn't going anywhere. There are going to be a lot of overcards, and I will be out of position throughout. Should I have just folded? I did think I had an equity edge on them but being OOP postflop with 88 three ways maybe negates that.

I'm never folding vs this line up.

3 betting has the advantage of making the BB fold.

also, if the maniac caps you can check raise the flop for protection/value on good boards to get LP player out.

if you 3bet and the flop is 733, you can check, LP checks, maniac obv bets, you check raise.


regarding PF, never, ever, ever fold here.

I would 3 bet to try to get it HU, if its 4 ways, thats not the worst thing, have odds to see the turn with a 2 outer now

Ducky, you have to think about this 88 versus the limper's capped range and the maniac's having everything. Is 88 getting the best of it? You say yes. Then you say
No, position doesn't negate having by far the best hand. Show me some equilab, and we can discuss.

Ducky, I notice this leak in a lot of your hands where you just don't want to put the $ into the pot ever. Do the stove; 88 performs very well against a big fish and a maniac.

In fact, I can give you a sample.

Against a huge huge fish and a maniac, 88 just has so much equity. Worrying that you might lose with it if you play it aggressively is NL thinking, and needs to go away.

Thanks, guys. I really appreciate the help. jdr, thanks for the simulation. I tried to download equilab yesterday, but was working and ran out of time. I definitely need to do these kinds of simulations to correct more of my leaks.

2/4$ live, Vegas 9players
3 players in the late position call almost any 2 cards (50-80% hands range).
SB saw him oraise and cap in Utg with 32s in another hand.

Utg limp ( plays around 40% of hands)
Me next KQo ?
( auto raise KQs of course).

snap raise. KQo is smashing everyone's range and has north of 20-21% equity given players as described when the hand goes off 6 ways.

Familiarize yourself with PPT as well

I know but after gaining a small equity edge of, they won't make any mistake posflop for sure because pot will be big enough to chase with anything .
I am still Utg+1 as well , lot player behind still .
Seem high unsuited card do not play very well in big multiway pot

I would raise also, but I think a bigger mistake than limping is playing 2/4 to begin with.

Funny that this thread got bumped earlier today .

21% eq in a 12 sb pot v. 6 sb pot is the difference of 1.26 sb. It's worth a good 0.26 sb to stick money in.

And this hand plays fine vs. their ranges. You can eliminate AA, KK, QQ if it's a single raised pot and sometimes AK too, so you're really only crushed by AQ and the discounted AK. And this hand makes nice top pairs, which is more than enough to value bet against droolers who will never raise you on the big streets without a hand that crushes TPGK (so you can play perfectly postflop).

+1. Though fwiw, raise >>>> call >> fold at least.

I should also add that they will make plenty of mistakes postflop. They'll set mine for the turn with 66 on JT9tt, they'll miss obvious value, they won't bluff (even though you're making, or should be making, ridiculously exploitative folds), etc. It's LHE, let them stick more $ in preflop than what their hand is worth and hope to run good for profit.

I'd raise that KQo without considering any other option.

Too much thinking going on. You have KQ.

Time to raise.

If it's 8 ways for two bets, that's a win for you.


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Sometimes the most rudimentary questions require the most explanation, because it likely means he's approaching similar equity-hog spots similarly.

Like if he has 88, he most likely won't have the best hand on the flop, but we'd all agree that it'd be criminal to not raise pre if he's getting action this loosely. Plus, preflop is really where the money is made in low limit hold em (well, FL in general, but especially these loose passive calling fests), so it's critical to get it right .

Actually it is more about playing 6max vs FR.
Multiway pot with more than 4players almost never happen in 6max and my hand range is not really fit for FR.
I just thought high sc seem to play much worst 5+ pot than Sc .
Hence I would rather limp and make more money vs bad player postflop .

Ps: the hand played out like this ..
Utg limp , i limp KsQh , 3limpers behind, BB check.

Flop Kh7hQs

BB Check , Utg check , I bet , 3 calls , BB fold, Utg called .

Turn Ah

Utg check , I Check, guy directly to my left bet , 1 called ,2 fold, I called .

River 3h

I Check , villain bet , 1 call, I raise , villain call , 1 fold

Of course villain complain with J8h.

Here, I'll play a game.

Say player A open limps ATC and never raises. In this hand, he has 75s and open limps UTG. You isolate with 20% of hands and do so, everyone folds and he calls getting 4.5:1 preflop w/ 27.8% equity. Because you know his ranges are so wide, you commit to triple barreling with value and bluffs.

The flop is KJ7r. He checks and you bet 100% of your range. He's getting 6.5:1 immediate and really should only be folding the rock bottom of his range (like T hi no straight draw and worse).

The turn is a brick, like a 3. He checks again and you bet again. Now he should probably only be folding his Q hi's that didn't hit a three on the turn and aren't straight draws, like Q8-. For the sake of argument, let's say he folds his worst A hi's too (A2, A4), getting 4.75:1 on a call

So now the river is a 6. He's getting 6.75:1 on a call and he only has a pair or better 75% of the time. He can't even fold a lot of his high card hands!

So he calls, and you flip over KQ, and he mucks in frustration.

Guess what? He only made one mistake this entire hand; the preflop limp. But that mistake compounded into a 3.5 bet loss

When people make loose mistakes preflop, their mistakes compound throughout the hand. The way to punish them for it isn't to limp along so that their postflop calls are worse, it's to jam a raise in their face immediately when you have the best of it.

Well like I said..
My fear was playing high unsuited connector plays much worst multiway than HU pot or 3-4 way .

My fear in 5-6+ pot with high off suit is that no one makes any mistakes till the river calling with any pair ( beside pp) .
So my chance of winning with only 1 pair is very low I guess if they fold rarely.
Of course this only apply with high unsuited card ...(AT Utg, not even limping with QJo in EP , etc)

Anyway like I said, my opening range in FR is not really up to point.

Raise pre flop
Bet Flop
Bet turn
Bet river.





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Yeah I think I would bet turn there also. Can't just assume someone has the flush, and you have a redraw.

Ya not betting turn might be worse than not raising preflop. Even if someone has a flush, we have 11 outs. Plus you can't assume these goofs have a flush here, or won't call you with hands you have dead/near dead.

You were also fortunate to get that action on the river.

Well I did not bet the turn because I wanted to show my hand down and I figured my hand was at best worth 2BB here , so I went into c/c mode.
Betting the turn , called a raise and call a river bet at game speed really felt bad vs this loose/ passif lineup and i did not have the will to fold this hand on the river.

If you are raised on the turn and don't improve you can safely fold river.

You need to play around with range calculations more. Trivial raise pre. Trivial turn bet. Trivial River fold if raised at any point. Welcome to live low stakes poker.