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Originally Posted by DougL
If we have every discussion of playability where you get to assume the much harder to play hand and the easier to play one cause you to make about the same number of mistakes, then let's just ignore playability as a factor.
Now you're putting words in my mouth and I don't particularly appreciate it. The mistakes are definitely more costly with 55 compared with ATo, but these mistakes are present for every hand except for the nuts.
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Also, isn't it a bit unfair to admit
and then try to win debating points with this example?
I'm not trying to win anything. I just wanna talk poker. No I don't think it's unfair at all. It seems to me that you think that "easier to play" = higher ev. I was simply pointing out that it's very untrue.
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My point is about hands that are very difficult to play being not quite as good as you'd think in close spots. Low PP tend to cause you difficult post flop situations where the answer boils down to guess and call down with 6th pair or guess and fold. Comparing the hand to some hand you never play seems like spewing words rather than debating the point.
That's fair, but this view only acknowledges the downsides. What about the upsides? Sometimes we flop a set and will own 80%+ of the pot. Sometimes it checks down through the river and we will win more often with 55 when this happens.
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I guess it also comes down to your formulation of EV. If you just use h/c equity, you're a long way from the true EV of a hand with more money behind.
This is very true. I don't claim to have a definitive answer for which hand has a higher ev for 3 betting here preflop and anyone that does is just talking out of someplace other than his or her mouth.
It's all just a mood point though because I'd 3 bet 77 and call the rest with the information given. With a good read that the opener sucks and that the coldcaller is wide and capped, then I'm gonna 3 bet everything on the list with the exception of T9s. I wasn't there though and I don't have that read, so I'm gonna call both 55 and ATo.