Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-17-2015, 03:48 PM   #301
Man of Means
Pooh-Bah
 
Man of Means's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: poker desert
Posts: 4,580
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
Yes. I'd think hard about raising if I had to act in turn. This is close to a playable hand and if people tightened up in kill pots... I've never played anywhere that the killer doesn't have last action, so I've never had to think about the spot. As played, you're sadly priced in. Add in that 5 hands isn't much of a read.
It's in turn, but the decision closing the action would be the same if I act last.

As played, though, I'm trying to think about how the fact that I knowingly checked in turn might widen button's range, and should widen my calling range. All I know is he's not a complete drooler. And I'm trained to think Q9o is a garbage hand.

Against a suspected kill exploiter, I called UTG, in a 3-way pot with T8o after having checked my option (and called him down on Q83-x-x FTW).

I started checking dark when posting the kill UTG. This way, I'm providing cover for the hands I'd rather not raise, some of which are nice to play for 1 bet. But perhaps I could do better, especially if I know about the frequency with which others are exploiting the kill-check.
Man of Means is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2015, 05:10 PM   #302
phunkphish
veteran
 
phunkphish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,902
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
LAG opens UTG 9-handed. If we're lucky, he has ATo. If he's a bad lag, maybe he has A9s. Does HJ has a flatting range? He still chooses to 3b which is strong.

The extra SB invested is pretty minute to me. If I'm BTN with ATo/AJo, this is a fold. So I would also fold it in the SB. AJo is closer, but I'd still fold. When I say I'd rather play suited hands, I was more thinking of JQs type hands.
Oh damn. reading comprehension fail. I thought UTG opened, HJ 3b.
phunkphish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2015, 05:45 PM   #303
Man of Means
Pooh-Bah
 
Man of Means's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: poker desert
Posts: 4,580
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
Oh damn. reading comprehension fail. I thought UTG opened, HJ 3b.
I also read it that way at first, but then seeing that the LAG "raises" in HJ corrected that. A-J is a monster against LAGs. A-10 less so, but I think should be played.
Man of Means is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2015, 04:21 PM   #304
lawdude
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,043
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
Yes. I'd think hard about raising if I had to act in turn. This is close to a playable hand and if people tightened up in kill pots... I've never played anywhere that the killer doesn't have last action, so I've never had to think about the spot.

As played, you're sadly priced in. Add in that 5 hands isn't much of a read.
I think acting in turn requires one to calm down a lot with respect to posting kills in early position. You really are going to get at least callers, and maybe 3-bettors, in position a lot. Typical players tend to not like folding QJ in the cut-off to 2 bets. So you don't get to isolate. Instead, you end up in a bloated pot out of position with a range that includes a lot of dominated hands.

Much better IMO to check a ton of your range (whereas you might raise it late position). Indeed, when I am acting first with a kill, I sometimes check in the dark-- I just figure I need to raise a fairly tight range and the amount of information I am giving away by not raising is just not worth it.
lawdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2015, 02:37 PM   #305
prototypepariah
old hand
 
prototypepariah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,867
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Here's one I tanked(for like 7 seconds) and felt really foolish doing so..curious what other think.


Mid stakes, loose passive(ish) table.

ep open limps,ep2 limps mp1 raises(normal range) , 2 cold callers. I'm in SB with black 77. I ?


Spoiler:
prototypepariah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2015, 04:28 PM   #306
DougL
Too helpful for this post
 
DougL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 21,611
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I mean 7 ways, you can't really go wrong. You're getting about the right price for set mining. Your capped range by cold calling gives up info, but that seems like the same info you give up by 3 betting and then donk checking the flop when you don't flop a set.

Quote:
I think I 3! If I can get it down to 3 handed post flop, but not 4+.
There are already 6 people with money in the pot and three of those have two bets in. It is going to be 4 ways always. It is more likely going to be 6-7 ways no matter what. Thinning the field isn't a concern or an opportunity. Also, leaking info multiway has to be less of a concern. Flop a set and get all the monies like 80% of the time.
DougL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2015, 07:48 PM   #307
rodeo
veteran
 
rodeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: i'll tell you when i get there
Posts: 3,257
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prototypepariah View Post
Here's one I tanked(for like 7 seconds) and felt really foolish doing so..curious what other think.


Mid stakes, loose passive(ish) table.

ep open limps,ep2 limps mp1 raises(normal range) , 2 cold callers. I'm in SB with black 77. I ?


Spoiler:
Call. Even if I was on the button, I wouldn't consider 3betting this hand.
rodeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2015, 03:05 AM   #308
prototypepariah
old hand
 
prototypepariah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,867
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
I mean 7 ways, you can't really go wrong. You're getting about the right price for set mining. Your capped range by cold calling gives up info, but that seems like the same info you give up by 3 betting and then donk checking the flop when you don't flop a set.


There are already 6 people with money in the pot and three of those have two bets in. It is going to be 4 ways always. It is more likely going to be 6-7 ways no matter what. Thinning the field isn't a concern or an opportunity. Also, leaking info multiway has to be less of a concern. Flop a set and get all the monies like 80% of the time.

That what I was trying to say. If there was a way to lessen the field to 3 I'd 3! bet pre, but since it's likely to just go off 6 ways...
prototypepariah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2015, 09:24 PM   #309
DalTXColtsFan
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: contributing to the poker economy
Posts: 3,337
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

$1/$2 online FR. Fairly early in an anonymous session, but so far most flops are seeing 3 people, occasionally 2, rarely 4 or more but it does happen. Very few limped pots - either someone raises or the BB gets a walk. So far haven't seen anyone do anything ridiculous or fishy.

UTG+2 raises, MP coldcalls, SB 3-bets, we are in the BB with JJ.
DalTXColtsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2015, 09:36 PM   #310
jdr0317
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 6,554
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
$1/$2 online FR. Fairly early in an anonymous session, but so far most flops are seeing 3 people, occasionally 2, rarely 4 or more but it does happen. Very few limped pots - either someone raises or the BB gets a walk. So far haven't seen anyone do anything ridiculous or fishy.

UTG+2 raises, MP coldcalls, SB 3-bets, we are in the BB with JJ.
Obvious answer: do not fold

Better answer: I'd go ahead and cap. Cold caller makes it more slam dunky. Give me TT or AQs here and it's closer, given your read of "tight table".
jdr0317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2015, 06:07 PM   #311
jdr0317
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 6,554
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Open UTG. Two absolute stations call and a maniac three bets. Reasonable player takes three on the button with what I assume is a set mine in a brewing huge pot. Somewhat aggro older player calls SB. Justifiable to cap 100% of my range here?
jdr0317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2015, 06:42 PM   #312
phunkphish
veteran
 
phunkphish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,902
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
Open UTG. Two absolute stations call and a maniac three bets. Reasonable player takes three on the button with what I assume is a set mine in a brewing huge pot. Somewhat aggro older player calls SB. Justifiable to cap 100% of my range here?
--Better to put BTN on a full range of hands instead of just PPs. He can still have Big ace / SC hands.

--I'd think twice about the bottom of your UTG range -- ATo/AJo, JKo, 77 ? -- but don't hate your plan.
phunkphish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2015, 07:10 PM   #313
jdr0317
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 6,554
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
--Better to put BTN on a full range of hands instead of just PPs. He can still have Big ace / SC hands.

--I'd think twice about the bottom of your UTG range -- ATo/AJo, JKo, 77 ? -- but don't hate your plan.
I don't think he's getting involved with dominated unsuited hands. Suited hands more likely. But I'm in pretty good shape against that particular range.

FWIW I'd much rather cap 77 than AJo here.
jdr0317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2015, 07:12 PM   #314
DougL
Too helpful for this post
 
DougL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 21,611
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
FWIW I'd much rather cap 77 than AJo here.
I'm curious, tell me more.
DougL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2015, 10:46 PM   #315
jdr0317
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 6,554
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
I'm curious, tell me more.
Not that I'd be thrilled to cap either, but 77 in a 6 way pot has pure set value. It's simply a function of what hand i'd rather have in a brewing megapot, 77 or AJo. I doubt I'm alone when I say the former.
jdr0317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2015, 01:18 AM   #316
phunkphish
veteran
 
phunkphish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,902
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Agree that 77 is a better cap than AJo. With 77, if you miss, you almost always have a live 2-outer. Bloating the pot lets you profitably float the flop for 1 SB. Same with suited hands; bloating the pot lets us float the flop more often to realize out BDFD equity. With AJo, I don't mind the pot being smaller. The equity edge PF is only slight. Bloated pot means other hands are more likely to realise their equity against us.
phunkphish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2015, 04:46 AM   #317
rodeo
veteran
 
rodeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: i'll tell you when i get there
Posts: 3,257
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
Open UTG. Two absolute stations call and a maniac three bets. Reasonable player takes three on the button with what I assume is a set mine in a brewing huge pot. Somewhat aggro older player calls SB. Justifiable to cap 100% of my range here?
i open around 13% from UTG in a 9 handed game. i've given your opponents ranges based on your reads. i think those ranges are reasonable. vs. those ranges i have 21.5% with my entire UTG range. the BTN has 18% and the rest of the field has between 14-16%. based solely on equity you could justify capping your entire range. doesn't mean you should though.
rodeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2015, 01:25 PM   #318
mongidig
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,773
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
--Better to put BTN on a full range of hands instead of just PPs. He can still have Big ace / SC hands.

--I'd think twice about the bottom of your UTG range -- ATo/AJo, JKo, 77 ? -- but don't hate your plan.
I fold ATo and KJo UTG..too tight?
mongidig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2015, 04:55 PM   #319
rodeo
veteran
 
rodeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: i'll tell you when i get there
Posts: 3,257
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
I fold ATo and KJo UTG..too tight?
no, not too tight.
rodeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2015, 02:53 PM   #320
AKHobbes
journeyman
 
AKHobbes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York
Posts: 281
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prototypepariah View Post
Here's one I tanked(for like 7 seconds) and felt really foolish doing so..curious what other think.


Mid stakes, loose passive(ish) table.

ep open limps,ep2 limps mp1 raises(normal range) , 2 cold callers. I'm in SB with black 77. I ?


Spoiler:

Just for my man proto, Ted Forrest caps 77 here. Speaking from experience...

Last edited by AKHobbes; 05-28-2015 at 02:55 PM. Reason: ****s and giggles
AKHobbes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2015, 05:19 PM   #321
jdr0317
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 6,554
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AKHobbes View Post
Just for my man proto, Ted Forrest caps 77 here. Speaking from experience...
I've heard Ted Forrest is attempting to grind Borg 20.
jdr0317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2015, 08:59 PM   #322
DalTXColtsFan
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: contributing to the poker economy
Posts: 3,337
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

We're UTG+2 at a 9-handed table with JTs. UTG and UTG+1 fold. It's still early in an anonymous session but the way HJ, CO and BTN have been playing so far we can expect one of them to raise if we limp. What do we do with JTs here?

Last edited by DalTXColtsFan; 05-29-2015 at 09:09 PM.
DalTXColtsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2015, 09:42 PM   #323
jdr0317
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 6,554
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
We're UTG+2 at a 9-handed table with JTs. UTG and UTG+1 fold. It's still early in an anonymous session but the way HJ, CO and BTN have been playing so far we can expect one of them to raise if we limp. What do we do with JTs here?
Raizitup1time IMO.
jdr0317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2015, 10:00 PM   #324
DalTXColtsFan
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: contributing to the poker economy
Posts: 3,337
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
Raizitup1time IMO.
It could just be memory bias, but I feel like with this particular hand, if I raise it I'm going to get one late-position coldcaller and one blind along for the ride, so I'm stuck in the middle with an easily-dominated hand with no showdown value unimproved, and vulnerable when either card pairs. That's why I'm often so tempted to limp it - I'm more likely to get the 5- or 6-way pot I want, even if I have to pay two bets to see the flop.

Yet it's a top 11% hand, therefore it would be nitty as *$#@ to not play it at all.

With this particular hand, if I raise and only get 1 or 2 callers, what am I hoping is going to happen once the flop comes, i.e. I flop top pair on a dry board and don't face aggression, I flop a strong draw with odds to chase, one or more overcards to my JT flop making it easy to get away from my hand etc?

What else should I be thinking about?
DalTXColtsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2015, 08:46 AM   #325
mongidig
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,773
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
It could just be memory bias, but I feel like with this particular hand, if I raise it I'm going to get one late-position coldcaller and one blind along for the ride, so I'm stuck in the middle with an easily-dominated hand with no showdown value unimproved, and vulnerable when either card pairs. That's why I'm often so tempted to limp it - I'm more likely to get the 5- or 6-way pot I want, even if I have to pay two bets to see the flop.

Yet it's a top 11% hand, therefore it would be nitty as *$#@ to not play it at all.

With this particular hand, if I raise and only get 1 or 2 callers, what am I hoping is going to happen once the flop comes, i.e. I flop top pair on a dry board and don't face aggression, I flop a strong draw with odds to chase, one or more overcards to my JT flop making it easy to get away from my hand etc?

What else should I be thinking about?
This is a pretty standard raise given the description of your game. If your not raising this then your open raising range is going to be too tight and predictable. If you raise and get several callers, that's ok since you'll have good equity MW with this hand. If you raise and are left with two players that's ok because now you have the chance to take it down on the flop or potentially barrel your way through the hand. If you just limp and call a raise you will be the one forced to make a hand in most situations.

Raising can gain you position.
Raising can win you the blinds.
Raising can allow you to see a 4 card flop
Raising can allow you to take a free turn card

In other words, raising gives you many more opportunities to win the hand than just limping.
mongidig is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online