Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Pre flop check up posts. Pre flop check up posts.

06-26-2023 , 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKQJ10
I'm rarely even playing most of those regardless of the BB raise potential. That might be my leak but I can't be missing out on much. The equity share I'm surrendering is mostly those times I flop a crappy top pair and it holds up or improves. Let's even say I have my fair 17% six ways hot and cold (seems dubious with this kind of crap). So hot and cold I'd be surrendering one small blind that I should have rescued to otherwise break even.

But then... RIO are so terrible, surely the pain they inflict is costing me about that SB if not more, right?

And multiway OOP, what am I realistically hoping for with K3? I have the only top pair on a draw heavy board, and then I fade all the draws?

T7 might appear to be the only exception because it can make straights but it doesn't make many. Flopping top pair of tens is both rare and dicey.
Didn't stox's book do a back-of-the-envelope calculation suggesting that getting 11:1 on a call we can basically play any two and only proceed if we flop two pair or better and still break even? I'm probably completing with all these hands in my games. If I knew the BB was going to raise, and thus I'm getting 7:1 instead of 11:1, I'd probably ditch the T5 and maybe the J6. I mean, this is a game with four limpers, which means almost by definition you're not exactly up against geniuses. I'm not too worried about my ability to navigate the hand post.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
06-29-2023 , 12:12 PM
How low are you going with your Ace suited hands when opening UTG 8 handed these days? My default used to be ATs+ 9 handed. In no limit they go tight but will throw in A5s, A4s type hands to widen the range. A6-A9 seem like they can get you into trouble.

How low are you going with your pocket pairs?

Assume the game is good and not overly agro.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
06-29-2023 , 12:22 PM
I usually raise all axs in less aggressive games. For pocket pairs I raise 66+ from utg.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
06-29-2023 , 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig
How low are you going with your Ace suited hands when opening UTG 8 handed these days? My default used to be ATs+ 9 handed. In no limit they go tight but will throw in A5s, A4s type hands to widen the range. A6-A9 seem like they can get you into trouble.

How low are you going with your pocket pairs?

Assume the game is good and not overly agro.
To my understanding A5s and other ace wheel suited are special semibluffs in NLHE because:

First, the ace blocks AA and AK, hands that will want to 3/4/5 bet and have you in terrible shape post.

Second, I'm told the equity of the wheel possibility gives it more inherent value than extra pips all the way up to A8s, but this sounds dubious to me.

However in NL it's more profitable long run to play a hand that can flop more draws, even weak ones. You're showing down less, and draws like wheel gutshots give you license for aggression that wins without the best hand more often.

And once a decent player calls your raise or reraise in NL, it's less likely they have A9, A8, A7, etc. anyway. Therefore the pips aren't worth much between A9 and A5 because you won't get in a kicker war with middle aces too often.

So I thought all that made sense... But now I hear claims A5s isn't a semibluff at all, which makes no sense at all to me. Seems pretty clear you aggress with it because it's too weak to call a raise. Shrug

.....

I don't think much of that applies to LHE though. If they're opening down to A8s in some spot and you 3! A5s, they're not folding for one bet. I.e. pips actually matter more.

Postflop playability obv matters in LHE but not in the same way. Bluffing x43 boards with one of your suit HU, planning to barrel, just isn't as big a source of profit, is it?

(Sincere question. I'm not good at LHE.)

Last edited by AKQJ10; 06-29-2023 at 12:57 PM.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
06-29-2023 , 11:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkraisdraw
I usually raise all axs in less aggressive games. For pocket pairs I raise 66+ from utg.
Yikes! I may be playing too tight. That being said I play in good but very aggressive games.

What type of Axs hands are you opening in a more aggressive game?
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
06-29-2023 , 11:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKQJ10
To my understanding A5s and other ace wheel suited are special semibluffs in NLHE because:

First, the ace blocks AA and AK, hands that will want to 3/4/5 bet and have you in terrible shape post.

Second, I'm told the equity of the wheel possibility gives it more inherent value than extra pips all the way up to A8s, but this sounds dubious to me.

However in NL it's more profitable long run to play a hand that can flop more draws, even weak ones. You're showing down less, and draws like wheel gutshots give you license for aggression that wins without the best hand more often.

And once a decent player calls your raise or reraise in NL, it's less likely they have A9, A8, A7, etc. anyway. Therefore the pips aren't worth much between A9 and A5 because you won't get in a kicker war with middle aces too often.

So I thought all that made sense... But now I hear claims A5s isn't a semibluff at all, which makes no sense at all to me. Seems pretty clear you aggress with it because it's too weak to call a raise. Shrug

.....

I don't think much of that applies to LHE though. If they're opening down to A8s in some spot and you 3! A5s, they're not folding for one bet. I.e. pips actually matter more.

Postflop playability obv matters in LHE but not in the same way. Bluffing x43 boards with one of your suit HU, planning to barrel, just isn't as big a source of profit, is it?

(Sincere question. I'm not good at LHE.)
I think the reasoning also for playing hands like A5s or some lower suited connectors in EP is for board coverage.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
06-30-2023 , 03:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig
Yikes! I may be playing too tight. That being said I play in good but very aggressive games.

What type of Axs hands are you opening in a more aggressive game?
I think we can just go linear. A8s+? Something like that. Not sure what others would say but I don’t think you’re giving up too much playing only ATs+ from utg in a game as described. But I do find even middling suited aces profitable enough to play, especially in games where players 3bet your utg open with stuff like JT, any pocket pair, K9s+, KTo, 56s, etc. They are giving up such an equity advantage that their positional advantage goes down the drain, and others will hop into pots with worse hands than yours trying to catch the spew monkey
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
07-01-2023 , 01:26 PM
I have a maniacle player on my left. There are 3 maniacs at the table so no matter where I move there will be a maniac to my left. The guy on my left might fold 15% of his hands to a raise. He is 3 betting probably 75% of his hands and calling the rest.

It's folded to me in the CO. The SB is a tight reg. The BB very laggy and often calls two and three bets. Sometimes it will end up HU with me and the button.

I'm trying to figure out a prudent opening range here. What are you doing with these?

1) JTo...This would be a standard open
2) 44"s.....22"s+ would be a standard open
3) Ad2d...Standard open
4) QJo....I'd open this from LJ normally
5) A7o....Any Ace is standard open but I tighten up a few pips depending on button.

The button will bet the flop and turn a lot unless the board comes particularly bad for him.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
07-01-2023 , 01:51 PM
I raise all and buckle up for a bumpy ride
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
07-01-2023 , 04:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkraisdraw
I raise all and buckle up for a bumpy ride
This is how I have always approached it. I'm running horrific right now especially in spots like this. I'm starting to second guess my plays.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
07-01-2023 , 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig
This is how I have always approached it. I'm running horrific right now especially in spots like this. I'm starting to second guess my plays.
Well maybe you can just do some folding at frequency. Raise it 50% instead of 100%. That way you will still have it in your range but at a lower frequency.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
07-01-2023 , 07:01 PM
I would drop 22, 33, and offsuit weak aces. No reason to worry about having anything particular in your range against maniacs.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
07-01-2023 , 09:56 PM
In the above described game fasten your seatbelt and hang on tightly and expect big swings. Even if you open with TT+ (obviously a bad strategy) you might sit there for hours without playing a hand or when you play a big Ace never flop anything.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
07-13-2023 , 04:51 PM
Don't know if this is the right place - please let me know.

2 hands - both are 8/16

Hand 1:

I'm in BB with 77. UTG+2 opens for a raise. Folded to me. I?

Villain appears, to me, to be best player at table. Opening a lot of pots and almost always for a raise. Shows down the goods when he gets to showdown, which is about 1/3 of the hands he plays. He's been running hot.

Hand 2: Same Villain

I'm in BB with AKo. UTG+2 opens for a raise. Folded to me. I?

It actually feels like he's attacking my blind (he's done this 4 or 5 times in a row) - but I don't think it's possible to attack my blind with 5 players between us. Only these 2 times was it folded to me after he raised.

fwiw - I called in both cases. I check folded 77 on a AAJ flop. I called down with AKo when the board flopped all small, turned a J, and rivered small.

Now I'm thinking I should have 3! and led in both cases ... but, for now, it is what it is.

When I called down, he showed KK.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
07-14-2023 , 11:56 AM
Preflop against an early opener, I just call both here.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
07-14-2023 , 01:18 PM
I pretty much call with my entire range against EP when it folds to me in the bb.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
07-19-2023 , 04:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkraisdraw
I pretty much call with my entire range against EP when it folds to me in the bb.
For clarity because afterthot is newer around here, what checkraisdraw means (I presume) is that he calls with every hand he plays, rather than having a 3b range, but he still folds some hands. We should play a lot of our hands in the BB for one more bet because of the amazing odds, but not 100% of hands.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
07-19-2023 , 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by afterthot
It actually feels like he's attacking my blind (he's done this 4 or 5 times in a row) - but I don't think it's possible to attack my blind with 5 players between us. Only these 2 times was it folded to me after he raised.

fwiw - I called in both cases. I check folded 77 on a AAJ flop. I called down with AKo when the board flopped all small, turned a J, and rivered small.

Now I'm thinking I should have 3! and led in both cases ... but, for now, it is what it is.

When I called down, he showed KK.
Your decision to just call preflop is standard. By not three-betting pre, we protect our weaker hands which we want to be able to call with because of the great odds we get, and we can exploit most players' tendency to continuation bet too often by check-raising the flop relatively often. But we get the advantage of seeing the flop before we put that extra small bet in. As the opener starts to get in later and later position, we forfeit more immediate equity if we don't three bet because the opener now has a wider range. Also, if the opener checks back at a correct frequency (or too much!) we don't get to recoup the bet we didn't put in preflop by checkraising. So there is more of a case for having a 3b range pre in the BB against a late position opener, but as you're getting your sea legs under you I would suggest you just never 3bet heads up out of the big blind ever. It is a much simpler strategy and I don't think it loses much EV versus a properly mixed preflop 3 betting strat. This is especially true given that most of the preflop 3 bets are mixes, and it is really hard to get that mix right.

The fact that this person had KK should give you confidence that you aren't just getting targeted. Sometimes it can feel that way. Someone will 3bet your open like 3 times in a row and you start to think they're three betting you light. But most of the time they just had hands all three times. Try not to make premature decisions about a player's strategy based off of a very small sample, unless it is something super egregious. Like, when I see someone open limp, I immediately classify them as a fish because there's no way that they've studied the game and they are doing that. But if I see someone open 4 hands in the first orbit, I might start to suspect they're a LAG, but I'm not going to really make any adjustments until I get more corroboration, such as by seeing the hands (ok, he opened with K5o, that seals it) or by having a larger sample.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
10-21-2023 , 03:44 PM
8 handed.

Pre flop lag who has a limping range open limps UTG. He plays passively post flop. It's folded to me in the HJ with 7h8h. The player to my left is extremely loose and passive pre. The blinds are TAGs.

What's the play?
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
10-22-2023 , 02:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig
8 handed.

Pre flop lag who has a limping range open limps UTG. He plays passively post flop. It's folded to me in the HJ with 7h8h. The player to my left is extremely loose and passive pre. The blinds are TAGs.

What's the play?
i just limp, call me a nit. rather the passive join in then attempt to get HU vs a lag with this hand.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
10-22-2023 , 02:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig
8 handed.

Pre flop lag who has a limping range open limps UTG. He plays passively post flop. It's folded to me in the HJ with 7h8h. The player to my left is extremely loose and passive pre. The blinds are TAGs.

What's the play?
What is a preflop lag? How does he play post?

Default is to raise or fold this hand. Guys with open limping ranges I want to punish them for trying to see a cheap flop. I don’t care if they play aggressive after the flop, their range will be so capped I think they’ll be easy to play against.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
10-28-2023 , 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkraisdraw
What is a preflop lag? How does he play post?

Default is to raise or fold this hand. Guys with open limping ranges I want to punish them for trying to see a cheap flop. I don’t care if they play aggressive after the flop, their range will be so capped I think they’ll be easy to play against.
"Pre flop lag who has a limping range open limps UTG. He plays passively post flop".
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
11-02-2023 , 09:46 AM
Tag opens in the CO, it's folded to me in the SB. The BB is an average reg. What do you do with these?

1) QJo
2) 44's
3) 9Ts
Pre flop check up posts. Quote
11-02-2023 , 10:08 AM
Maniac opens UTG. He is opening any two. He is four betting a three bet. He'll put in lots of action on the flop but will slow down on the turn sometimes when he has absolutely nothing. He is usually getting to the river drawing to anything.

It's folded to me on the button. Equity wise there are a ton of hands I can three bet here. Assume the blinds are tight. At what point is it not profitable to iso the maniac? There will obviously be times that the blinds wake up with a hand. I won't be able to bluff him out of too many pots.

1) T8o has about 50% equity. Does equity even matter? Is the idea more about getting heads up, hope to hit a piece and get paid off?

2) K2o has about 50% equity. I'd think all Aces would be played. Do we want at least a bit of a kicker with the K like K6+?

3) J7o has about 50% equity. J5o has 47%.

5) Q5o has about 50% equity.
Pre flop check up posts. Quote

      
m