id go down to 65o here and any two suited.

The game is very loose and quite aggressive pre flop.

UTG open limps, it's folded to the LJ who raises, I am next to act with 22"s. The CO, button, SB and BB are all very loose and call two bets often pre. The UTG likes to LRR but usually has decent holdings like big pairs, suited broadways, KQo etc. Sometimes he will LRR with junk just for the heck of it. If he does LRR the HJ will almost always cap. Things tend to tone down post flop. The LJ is very aggressive pre and will often open raise junky hands. He C bets the flop 100%. All players behind me also will 3 bet their better hands.

I have bad position and might be paying 4 bets to see a flop. The pots have been very big. Is this just a gamble situation?

Seems really optimistic to play a hand that's only worth it if you get a parlay, right?

If none of CO, button, or SB call, assuming BB will call, then your hand isn't worth it. If UTG reraises, which sounds quite likely, your hand really isn't worth it.

Otoh if it's 2 bets only and one other player plus the BB call, it might be marginally worth it. And if a couple call, also reasonably likely, then it's profitable.

The way you describe it it sounds too likely to run off the rails facing a 3! and 4! but that's your judgement call.

Keep in mind the ugly set over set scenario.

sucks but i think folding is correct

just call if you want to, who cares? like obviously this is just a fold pre but you’re trying to intellectualize calling when you don’t need to. buy your lottery ticket.

You see things that aren't there I've noticed. I simply laid out the scenario and was genuinely curious what you guy's would do. I don't know that this is "obviously" a fold.

True!

There is also the tilt scenario that could occur if I folded and would have won a massive pot with a flopped set.

Kill pot. I am the kill in the SB. The TAG HJ opens. It is folded to me in the SB. Is this a raise or fold situation?

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. In what world is coldcalling a raise next to act ever going to be a good play in limit? You had to include the backstory of a bunch of people potentially calling behind you to make it seem even remotely reasonable.

Eh, if he had T9s or something I think coldcalling next in would be a trivially small mistake if it is a mistake at all. I also think coldcalling next in when there are limpers in front is a lot better than coldcalling an open raise (which I agree is virtually never correct). The bigger problem is that 22 is terrible at realizing its equity, particularly in multi-way pots.

In a world where the conditions are right to do so.

If we took out the threat of the LRR in my 22's example but kept the possibility of several cold callers I think calling is correct.

If an UTG TAG opens and there are several very loose/bad players behind who will take two too the face regularly it could be right to call a hand like KQs, or a mid pocket pair.

If I didn't include the "backstory" you wouldn't have all of the information needed to respond to the question.

With pocket 22's you are hoping to get into what should be a big MW pot for only the two bets. You are hoping to flop a set and win a massive pot. Being out of position isn't the end of the world.

With 9Ts there are certainly more ways to win but also more ways to invest more money doing so. Being out of position is a major disadvantage. If the game tends to be very aggressive post flop you're probably looking for trouble playing it.

I would prefer having 22's in this scenario.

I'm on monkey tilt from "9Ts." I highly disagree that 22 is a better hand in a multiway pot than T9s, the latter of which is a multiway beast, and holds up a lot better against bigger pairs than 22 does.

you’re coldcalling utg tag opens hoping to parlay other people calling behind you? lol

There are low stakes games or at least were 10 years ago where you could count on such looseness and passivity. The profit of playing 22 multiway for two bets would make up for the occasional 3! or rare time no one behind your likes their hand.

But it was made clear, that is NOT the read of the limper here.

I said if "the conditions are right".

If I had the choice to call either of these hands I would choose 22's in the scenario where the pot will be big and MW but there could be a LRR. I'm not looking for a pair of 22's to hold up I'm looking to flop a set and win a huge pot. It's pretty easy to play post flop. 9Ts is a nice MW hand when you have good position on the field. I'm not loving the possibility of getting whipsawed post flop with a draw or a marginal pair.

You should do something about that "monkey tilt". It's one thing to go on tilt at the table after a bad beat. It's a bit disturbing to go on tilt on an internet forum.

This is a half kill BTW.

It's just a joke about the fact that you type T9s as 9Ts. I've only ever seen the lower card written first in video poker strategies, and it always strikes me as wrong and hard to read. I'm obviously not actually tilted by it.

UTG is maniacal pre but straight forward post. He will just call to a heads up 3b but will always cap if other players are in after the 3 bet. He will quickly fold many flops since he has such a wide range and nothing. He will chase with any piece to the river. He is the perfect candidate to iso 3 bet. The problem is that I have another maniacal player to my left. He will often call 3 bets cold with any pair, any middle to big unsuited connector, pretty much all suited hands. I think he will fold the bottom 50% of hands to a 3b. He'll cold cap the top 20% of hands but sometimes will sprinkle in completely trashy hands. He usually fires two streets and then will check back the river if he has nothing. The opportunity to iso the UTG doesn't come up often because the players between me and UTG are both super laggy. The blinds are both TAGs.

UTG opens, it's folded to me in the CO. I have maniac 2 behind me on the button. What mix of hands would be appropriate to 3 bet? I'm definitely 3 betting any suited broadway, ATo+ 77's+ KJo+. These hands are doing fine against these two whether it gets capped 3 way and certainly will do well if it gets heads up. How much lower can I go? A hand like A8o is doing great against UTG but it gets kind of ugly if the button gets in there. I think folding 22-55 makes sense sense since these pairs suffer greatly if the button calls or caps.

How low are you guy's going in this spot?

What the...

22 is surely profitable in a 5-way pot, you're getting 4:1 with what, 7.5:1 to flop a set so with implied odds on the flop->river, you're getting way an overlay. Yes, you will not always win with a set, so that's why you need more than 7.5:1 to the river, but usually you will win. 16:4 is not the same thing, so I don't think it's profitable then. Position doesn't matter, all you're trying to do is flop a set, not try to showdown an underpair 5-ways...

It's probably slightly not profitable to call 2 bets because the blinds don't always call and the UTG sometimes re-raises.

And posting a kill in SB is not an auto 3! or fold situation to a button open, there are lots of hands you can call getting 3.5:1.

nah

Lets say 4 players limp, it's folded to you in the SB. The BB is quite aggressive and will raise a decent amount.

How much do you need to tighten up? Here are some junkie hands I might limp in with in a MW pot. Do you complete these in the first place? How much does the threat of getting raised by the BB effect your decision?

1) T7o
2) J6o
3) K7o
4) K3o
5) T5o

I'm rarely even playing most of those regardless of the BB raise potential. That might be my leak but I can't be missing out on much. The equity share I'm surrendering is mostly those times I flop a crappy top pair and it holds up or improves. Let's even say I have my fair 17% six ways hot and cold (seems dubious with this kind of crap). So hot and cold I'd be surrendering one small blind that I should have rescued to otherwise break even.

But then... RIO are so terrible, surely the pain they inflict is costing me about that SB if not more, right?

And multiway OOP, what am I realistically hoping for with K3? I have the only top pair on a draw heavy board, and then I fade all the draws?

T7 might appear to be the only exception because it can make straights but it doesn't make many. Flopping top pair of tens is both rare and dicey.