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Old 04-25-2015, 12:45 PM   #251
mongidig
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

20/40...folded to loose passive and straight forward older man who limps HJ. Folded to me on the button with JTo. The BB overly defends. SB is loose passive.
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Old 04-25-2015, 05:37 PM   #252
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
20/40...folded to loose passive and straight forward older man who limps HJ. Folded to me on the button with JTo. The BB overly defends. SB is loose passive.
I raise it. You're gonna be 4 way and playing fit or fold post-flop a lot, of course, but you are also going to get maximum value whenever you hit top pair or better and you can take a 4 card flop when you miss.
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Old 05-09-2015, 07:37 AM   #253
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Online, 4-handed anonymous .05/.10 tables, all villains have been raising and reraising before the flop and playing fairly sticky postflop. CO raises, BTN 3!s, we are SB with KQo.
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Old 05-09-2015, 10:47 AM   #254
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

4-handed. Everyone playing very LAGgy. Cap it.
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Old 05-11-2015, 08:49 AM   #255
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

20/40 live 9 handed. The game is very loose and fairly passive pre.

UTG limps, I over limp next in with Ac6c, the player next to act raises(this is a very tight range, TT+ AKo+), the very Laggy pre CO 3 bets(he is just playing his hand and isn't thinking about ranges), both blinds call, UTG calls....I am next to act...I see that the original raiser is telegraphing a cap...his capping range is QQ+ and maybe AK.

I call here always. Should I be considering a fold here having to call three bets essentially?
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Old 05-11-2015, 10:15 AM   #256
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

If you thought it was going to be 6 ways 3 bets OOP to two raisers with at least one super-premium range, would you play? Is the fact that you invested 1sb enough to turn this from a snap fold to a clear call?

You have a very LAG CO, over limping UTG+1 with A6s sounds not wonderful.

FWIW, I think you fold and it isn't particularly close. You looked left and got great information. Use it.
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Old 05-11-2015, 10:59 AM   #257
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
You have a very LAG CO, over limping UTG+1 with A6s sounds not wonderful.
I agree. I'd rather raise than limp, but I think folding is best. However, if all I had for a read was "very loose and fairly passive pre" without the "laggy" read on the cutoff, then I like a limp.

As played with the limp I think folding everything but pocket pairs is best. My unpaired limping range is very weak here and I'm having trouble coming up with a single hand that I'd call three with in this spot besides the pocket pairs.
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Old 05-11-2015, 04:26 PM   #258
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
20/40...folded to loose passive and straight forward older man who limps HJ. Folded to me on the button with JTo. The BB overly defends. SB is loose passive.
raise.
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Old 05-11-2015, 04:28 PM   #259
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
20/40 live 9 handed. The game is very loose and fairly passive pre.

UTG limps, I over limp next in with Ac6c, the player next to act raises(this is a very tight range, TT+ AKo+), the very Laggy pre CO 3 bets(he is just playing his hand and isn't thinking about ranges), both blinds call, UTG calls....I am next to act...I see that the original raiser is telegraphing a cap...his capping range is QQ+ and maybe AK.

I call here always. Should I be considering a fold here having to call three bets essentially?
fold the first time it's your turn to act.
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Old 05-11-2015, 04:47 PM   #260
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
Reasonable LAG opens earlyish, erratic player three bets, relative unknown (might be adjusting a little, but mostly playing with no limit player training wheels on) caps it. Range of hands you call cold in position with?
AA-88, AKs-ATs, AKo, AQo, KQs, KJs-KTs, QJs, QTs, JTs, T9s, 98s

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
15%22.33% 126,57316,361
20%20.49% 116,54214,238
7%30.40% 173,33619,666
AA-88, AKs-ATs, AKo, AQo, KQs, KJs-KTs, QJs, QTs, JTs, T9s, 98s26.78% 152,59017,689

worst case scenario:

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
13%21.69% 123,07315,483
15%20.57% 116,68214,816
5%32.97% 189,35618,441
AA-88, AKs-ATs, AKo, AQo, KQs, KJs-KTs, QJs, QTs, JTs, T9s, 98s24.78% 141,17616,328
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Old 05-11-2015, 10:07 PM   #261
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Live $4/$8, table playing like's straight out of SSHE. 4 limps and we're on the button. What is our raising range?

I'm thinking any suited ace, suited king, suited connector at least 65s or pocket pair is a no-brainer. If I felt like everyone at the table was basically playing their hands face up postflop I'd add on A7-A9 and any 2 broadways with the plan of being careful about domination.
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Old 05-11-2015, 10:24 PM   #262
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo View Post
AA-88, AKs-ATs, AKo, AQo, KQs, KJs-KTs, QJs, QTs, JTs, T9s, 98s

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
15%22.33% 126,57316,361
20%20.49% 116,54214,238
7%30.40% 173,33619,666
AA-88, AKs-ATs, AKo, AQo, KQs, KJs-KTs, QJs, QTs, JTs, T9s, 98s26.78% 152,59017,689

worst case scenario:

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
13%21.69% 123,07315,483
15%20.57% 116,68214,816
5%32.97% 189,35618,441
AA-88, AKs-ATs, AKo, AQo, KQs, KJs-KTs, QJs, QTs, JTs, T9s, 98s24.78% 141,17616,328
Do you think that all of those hands are +ev? I would think that we should have a bigger edge range vs range. Looks like you're breaking even in what should be a very profitable spot for your range.
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Old 05-11-2015, 10:30 PM   #263
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
Live $4/$8, table playing like's straight out of SSHE. 4 limps and we're on the button. What is our raising range?

I'm thinking any suited ace, suited king, suited connector at least 65s or pocket pair is a no-brainer. If I felt like everyone at the table was basically playing their hands face up postflop I'd add on A7-A9 and any 2 broadways with the plan of being careful about domination.
I'd raise A2s+, ATo+, K8s+, KJo+, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 87s.
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Old 05-12-2015, 12:04 AM   #264
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

4 limps to you on the button is actually tighter than games the SSHE book describes, and it doesn't say to raise very many of those hands. Several of those hands you guys mentioned are just barely calling hands. Raising them would be very silly, especially something like K8s.
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Old 05-12-2015, 01:59 AM   #265
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
Do you think that all of those hands are +ev? I would think that we should have a bigger edge range vs range. Looks like you're breaking even in what should be a very profitable spot for your range.
no, i don't think all of these hands are +ev individually. if we want a bigger range vs. range edge, we can drop 88-TT and AQo. that helps a bit. it also helps that we don't care what the blinds do since when they call, it will likely be with too wide a range and when they fold, we have that tiny bit of dead money to help offset our pre flop cost.

so yeah, we should tighten up a bit from what i originally posted. but since we're not idiots, we're going to have more than our fair share of equity no matter what scenario you draw up.

one interesting thing about this spot is how often it comes up. i would guess it's pretty rare in a live game. so it's not going to matter too much if we play a range that's slightly too wide pre flop as long as we don't **** it up post.

Last edited by rodeo; 05-12-2015 at 02:12 AM.
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Old 05-12-2015, 02:10 AM   #266
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
4 limps to you on the button is actually tighter than games the SSHE book describes, and it doesn't say to raise very many of those hands. Several of those hands you guys mentioned are just barely calling hands. Raising them would be very silly, especially something like K8s.
http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
UTG+1 21.92% 20.63% 1.29% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K9s, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, 54s, AJo-A5o, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
UTG+2 19.22% 17.86% 1.35% { 88-22, AJs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q7s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 85s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, AJo-A2o, KJo-K9o, Q8o+, J7o+, T8o+, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o }
MP1 18.57% 17.38% 1.19% { JJ-22, A9s-A2s, K9s-K2s, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 94s+, 84s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, 43s, 32s, ATo-A2o, KJo-K9o, Q8o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 86o+, 75o+, 65o }
MP2 18.28% 17.03% 1.25% { TT-22, ATs-A2s, KTs-K2s, QTs-Q2s, J2s+, T2s+, 94s+, 84s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, 43s, 32s, AJo-A2o, KJo-K8o, Q8o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 86o+, 75o+, 65o, 54o }
BU 22.01% 20.96% 1.05% { K8s }

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
UTG+1 19.60% 18.38% 1.23% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K9s, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, 54s, AJo-A5o, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
UTG+2 17.85% 16.67% 1.18% { 88-22, AJs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q7s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 85s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, AJo-A2o, KJo-K9o, Q8o+, J7o+, T8o+, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o }
MP1 17.52% 16.47% 1.05% { JJ-22, A9s-A2s, K9s-K2s, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 94s+, 84s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, 43s, 32s, ATo-A2o, KJo-K9o, Q8o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 86o+, 75o+, 65o }
MP2 17.32% 16.26% 1.05% { TT-22, ATs-A2s, KTs-K2s, QTs-Q2s, J2s+, T2s+, 94s+, 84s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, 43s, 32s, AJo-A2o, KJo-K8o, Q8o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 86o+, 75o+, 65o, 54o }
BU 27.71% 26.52% 1.18% { 77+, A2s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, ATo+, KJo+ }
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Old 05-12-2015, 04:28 AM   #267
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I have to say I think these ranges are pretty unrealistic. More likely that one of those guys has AK than some of that trash.
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Old 05-12-2015, 05:25 AM   #268
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
I have to say I think these ranges are pretty unrealistic. More likely that one of those guys has AK than some of that trash.
i tightened up the first two limpers range a bit. it's a live $4/$8 game, these guys are limping a very wide range. these equity calcs represent the first limper's range being somewhat reasonable and each limper thereafter has a wider range. we can account for many scenarios, but it's not going to change the fact that we have an equity advantage vs. 4 limpers with the range bob148 suggested. would you like to suggest a range to raise and do some equity calculations? i've never been in a $4/$8 game where it wouldn't be profitable to raise the range of hands bob148 offered.

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
UTG+1 20.66% 19.48% 1.19% { 99-22, A2s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, A9o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
UTG+2 18.44% 17.30% 1.13% { TT-22, AJs-A2s, KJs-K9s, Q9s+, J8s+, T7s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, AJo-A5o, KJo-K9o, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o }
MP1 17.39% 16.34% 1.04% { JJ-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q4s+, J4s+, T4s+, 94s+, 84s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, AJo-A2o, KJo-K9o, Q8o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 86o+, 75o+, 65o }
MP2 16.88% 15.90% 0.99% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KTs-K2s, QTs-Q2s, J2s+, T2s+, 94s+, 84s+, 74s+, 64s+, 53s+, 43s, 32s, AJo-A2o, KJo-K8o, Q8o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 86o+, 75o+, 65o, 54o }
BU 26.63% 25.42% 1.21% { 77+, A2s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, ATo+, KJo+ }

here's one where the first limper still has the top of his range intact

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
UTG+1 21.93% 20.81% 1.13% { 22+, A2s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, A9o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
UTG+2 18.31% 17.33% 0.98% { TT-22, AJs-A5s, KJs-K9s, Q9s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, AJo-A9o, KJo-K9o, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o }
MP1 17.31% 16.29% 1.02% { JJ-22, AJs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q4s+, J4s+, T4s+, 94s+, 84s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, AJo-A2o, KJo-K9o, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o, 87o, 76o }
MP2 16.79% 15.85% 0.94% { JJ-22, AJs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 94s+, 84s+, 74s+, 64s+, 53s+, 43s, 32s, AJo-A2o, KJo-K8o, Q8o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 86o+, 75o+, 65o, 54o }
BU 25.65% 24.48% 1.17% { 77+, A2s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, ATo+, KJo+ }

Last edited by rodeo; 05-12-2015 at 05:35 AM.
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Old 05-12-2015, 11:56 AM   #269
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I'm not saying raising that range wouldn't be profitable as a whole, but I don't think that the weakest hands in it make sense to have in your range. And in most very low limit games I have played with a lot of limpers, many players have an extremely tight raising range, sometimes raising only AA and KK.
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Old 05-12-2015, 12:02 PM   #270
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
I agree. I'd rather raise than limp, but I think folding is best. However, if all I had for a read was "very loose and fairly passive pre" without the "laggy" read on the cutoff, then I like a limp.

As played with the limp I think folding everything but pocket pairs is best. My unpaired limping range is very weak here and I'm having trouble coming up with a single hand that I'd call three with in this spot besides the pocket pairs.
There were 6-9 players seeing a flop every hand. The fact that the nitty guy woke up with a hand and it ended getting three bet was not the norm. The laggy player was raising quite a bit but not always. I hate raising here, but I still feel that this is a fine over limp recognizing that once in a while I would have to pay two bets. The pots were huge and I feel it's worth the gamble to play here with a hand that can make the nuts.

As played, I would call all pocket pairs and suited connectors after the raises.
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Old 05-12-2015, 12:39 PM   #271
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

The fact that a nit gets a top 2% hand doesn't happen often, and sure you can ignore it in deciding to limp. The fact that the LAG has nearly (random) in raising the nit is more strange. If he just always raises without caring about the action, then you're going to get raised often and limping is less good. If he doesn't raise very often, then he has a stronger hand and Axs cares that there are two strong hands. It is hard for him to have basically anything and limping to be good.
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Old 05-12-2015, 01:12 PM   #272
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
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The fact that a nit gets a top 2% hand doesn't happen often, and sure you can ignore it in deciding to limp. The fact that the LAG has nearly (random) in raising the nit is more strange. If he just always raises without caring about the action, then you're going to get raised often and limping is less good. If he doesn't raise very often, then he has a stronger hand and Axs cares that there are two strong hands. It is hard for him to have basically anything and limping to be good.
What I meant by "he is just playing his hand and not considering ranges" is that if the LAG has a Hand he wants to raise he is not considering the fact he may be crushed by the nit. He has a loose raising range but not close to just random.

I think he has hands like 66's, KJo, 9Ts etc in his 3 bet range.
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Old 05-12-2015, 03:54 PM   #273
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

In addition to a lot of A's better than yours? That's my concern is that you have a super strong range + another strong range. I don't know other ranges in your game that well, but I'm guessing the two strong ranges combine to make A6s a particularly bad holding. Basically, the tighter the LAGs opening range the more generally happy you are with your limp and the more specifically unhappy you are to have what you have.
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Old 05-13-2015, 12:15 PM   #274
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

20/40 live 9 handed.

The button is pretty loose, cold calls a lot, fairly sticky post flop, straight forward, mubsy. The blinds are both tight. My image is TAG.

It's folded to me in the CO. What do you do with these hands? 22's-55's...J8s, 67s, A2o-A6o, K5s-K7s.
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Old 05-13-2015, 12:55 PM   #275
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
20/40 live 9 handed.

The button is pretty loose, cold calls a lot, fairly sticky post flop, straight forward, mubsy. The blinds are both tight. My image is TAG.

It's folded to me in the CO. What do you do with these hands? 22's-55's...J8s, 67s, A2o-A6o, K5s-K7s.
Open all the PP's except 22, open J8s, open 76s, open A4o+, and I can go either way on the suited kings here.
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