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Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

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Old 04-22-2021, 06:02 PM   #2526
checkraisdraw
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munga30 View Post
Posting a blind in the CO doesn't cost the full value of the blind. We have an expectation in the hand dealt. Posting the kill and leaving the table without seeing your cards costs the full value.
You also have to calculate the cost of the rake too. So it's not just posting the blind but also the 5-6 dollars you pay in rake. It's hard to make up a 1BB~ handicap on winning the hand. Again, I'm not folding this hand, just saying that it's not crazy to fold AJo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardinthepaint
I think it is easy to overestimate the EV cost of having to post the kill. Yes, the pot you win is 0.75BB smaller than it would be, but you have to add back in that you get to put the money in live so it's not truly a .75 BB loss, it is some fraction of that. Someone can probably calculate the true EV cost (in a vacuum) of posting the kill, but then you also need to adjust for the fact that the greater your edge in the game, the less of an EV hit you take from having to post a blind, especially in a relatively good position. Add in the fact that many players poorly adjust to kill pots, and it's just not that bad IMO.

Of course, I think it is still appropriate to tighten up with the leg up, but I'd only cut out the really marginal stuff.
I totally agree with you. My point was that a slam dunk raise turns into a marginal-ish spot. And like I said above you also have to consider the "normal" rake. I think it would be really interesting to see what the "proper" strategy would be for playing kill pots. I have seen people say that we should tighten up really significantly in kill pots but have also seen really good players play even looser in leg up situations in hopes of getting people out of their comfort zone.

At the 4-8 level this doesn't really matter anyway. Chances are that the rake is too high for most people to win at live 4-8 (though experts will do much better than most). When you get to the 20/40 or 40/80 half-kill at the Bike or 25/50 full kill at Hustler then the pressure and increased variance of the kill pot does start to factor into people's decisions. I think the people that come play lower and go after the kill pots aggressively can make up for their general looseness in other areas by trying to increase the variance.

I go back and forth on kill pots. I generally like games without them better, but the kill games I've played in have generally been fantastic. A lot of people will play to try to get a streak of kill pots going, and there are chances for very high EV situations.
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Old 04-22-2021, 06:30 PM   #2527
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by checkraisdraw View Post
At the 4-8 level this doesn't really matter anyway. Chances are that the rake is too high for most people to win at live 4-8 (though experts will do much better than most).
Yeah I agree that 4/8 is very hard to be a long term winner at with the rake and promo drop. However, over the years I've played a ton of it. And seem to do well. At one point I was tracking my time, buy-ins, cash-outs and promos and was making about $10/hr over a 500 hour sample (yes I realize this isn't huge). And I also know that most people would say to make $10/hr you should just find something better to do but the enjoyment +untaxable money versus paying to have a hobby or go to sporting events etc. costs money whereas no cost pastimes like watching TV and masturbating loses it's appeal over time.

It's the highest limit game that my card room can get going regularly so it's not that I'm not willing to play higher I just don't have the possibility unless I'm willing to drive 1 hour to the next card room to play 8/16+. Given that I work during the day until 5:30pm the 1 hour drive versus the 20 minute drive plays a significant factor in my decision to play as a 5 hour session to the further room would need to be a 7 hour commitment vs a 5 hour 40 minute commitment to the local.

Or I play the 2-100 spread limit game which honestly gives me an ulcer and I'm definitely a loser at. I could put the time in to get better but truthfully I just don't have the drive to learn a completely different game that I don't enjoy as much as limit and I love limit poker. I think it's challenging and fun. I've never had a great conversation at spread limit as I have regularly at the limit tables where most people are there to just have fun.
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Old 04-23-2021, 03:44 AM   #2528
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Any hobby where you can make money isn’t that bad. It is nice to be able to move up because it can give you the drive to improve your game, something to shoot for. For me it is worth it to drive an extra hour to play in a bigger game because the potential to make a lot of money is there. If you win at the same rate you will be averaging $20 an hour.

Edit: of course if you’re a life crusher that difference might not matter to you. But I will also say that huge pots at 8/16 or above are an adrenaline rush you can’t get at 4/8.

Last edited by checkraisdraw; 04-23-2021 at 03:55 AM.
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Old 04-23-2021, 12:27 PM   #2529
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

If you are playing for the adrenaline rush, you have got a problem.
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Old 04-23-2021, 04:25 PM   #2530
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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If you are playing for the adrenaline rush, you have got a problem.
If you're getting an adrenaline rush from playing 4/8 or 8/16 you have a problem. You may wanna check your blood pressure
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Old 04-23-2021, 04:31 PM   #2531
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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If you are playing for the adrenaline rush, you have got a problem.
Lmao ok dude
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Old 05-03-2021, 12:57 PM   #2532
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

20/40 live 7 max.

The UTG posts a half kill. Folded to SB who raises. She is slightly laggy. I've seen her open UTG 9 handed with ATo, A6s, and 66. She three bet a late position player with K9s. She tends to call down very lightly post flop. She seems to be mubsy at times against aggression.

The killer is a TAG/fish pre. He does limp some and cold call some. He probably respect my raises but will get in there with a slightly loose range.

I'm in the BB with KTo. How would you play it?
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Old 05-03-2021, 01:43 PM   #2533
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Maybe I've been playing too much NLHE, but I don't want to play offsuit broadway trash multiway. Will a three-bet fold out the killer?

SB likes their holding enough to want to play it in worst absolute position for the rest of the hand against someone who is likely to call.

We don't have enough hand to 3-bet. I fold here. Call me a nit.
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Old 05-03-2021, 05:52 PM   #2534
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Wow. Maybe I'm too LAGy but I 3-bet here all day. It's the same as if UTG had straddled and sb raised. I'm 100% going for max pressure in position against raiser and in an attempt to fold out dead money.
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Old 05-04-2021, 02:27 AM   #2535
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

It is slightly different from a straddle, in that a straddle is completely voluntary, and thus the pool of straddlers is biased towards action junkies and degens, whereas a kill is a forced bet, and the killer is simply someone who won two hands in a row. A killer is moderately less likely to play for multiple bets than a straddler.
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Old 05-04-2021, 04:35 AM   #2536
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

If the killer acts in turn and checked, a 3b! seems fine here. If he hasn’t acted yet a 3b seems ambitious since she is raising into two people that can both have a hand from the worst position. I would never call here.
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:04 PM   #2537
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by checkraisdraw View Post
If the killer acts in turn and checked, a 3b! seems fine here. If he hasn’t acted yet a 3b seems ambitious since she is raising into two people that can both have a hand from the worst position. I would never call here.
In this case the killer acts last unless it is raised before them.

On one hand she may see a lot of dead money out there. That being said, I can't give her a total steal range given her position. Even if I do get this heads up by 3 betting, range on range I'm not doing great. The fact that she is sticky post flop doesn't help. A fair amount of time the killer will call three or cap which would be very bad with this hand.

With the potential to create dead money from the killer and have position on the raiser a three bet would be the play.

I think KTo is a fold but KJo is a play.
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:12 PM   #2538
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I have 9cTc on the button. The Co opens. He opens probably 80% of hands when it is folded to him in this position. He calls with the rest except for a few hands that he may just fold. He donks a lot on the flop. His donks are weak but include hands of decent strength like top pair no kicker. He'll donk draws as well. He also will WTF cap a fair amount pre flop. He can be combative post.

The blinds are both very loose. They will probably call two bets. They will sometimes call three bets but often fold.

What's your play?

What would you do if the blinds were tight?
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Old 05-04-2021, 09:07 PM   #2539
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

3 town
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Old 05-05-2021, 12:41 AM   #2540
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
I have 9cTc on the button. The Co opens. He opens probably 80% of hands when it is folded to him in this position. He calls with the rest except for a few hands that he may just fold. He donks a lot on the flop. His donks are weak but include hands of decent strength like top pair no kicker. He'll donk draws as well. He also will WTF cap a fair amount pre flop. He can be combative post.

The blinds are both very loose. They will probably call two bets. They will sometimes call three bets but often fold.

What's your play?

What would you do if the blinds were tight?
Iíd 3bet either way.
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Old 05-05-2021, 10:00 PM   #2541
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

How low do you guy's go regarding 3 betting suited connectors on the button?
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Old 05-06-2021, 02:09 AM   #2542
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

89s is borderline. If the blinds are tighter I would go that far.
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Old 05-06-2021, 02:27 PM   #2543
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Anybody here want to give input on what range we should open on the button in an 8/16 game where there is an 8 dollar drop if it gets to the river?
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Old 05-06-2021, 03:30 PM   #2544
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

$8 drop just seems obscene at 8/16.
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Old 05-06-2021, 04:58 PM   #2545
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Yeah but to be fair an 8 dollar drop is proportionally the same as a 4 dollar drop at 4/8 (and many drops are 5-7 dollars at 4/8). Itís pretty sick though. Makes me wonder if itís even worth playing.

I think with an 8 dollar drop we should be opening closer to 30-35% rather than the more standard 45-60%.
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Old 05-06-2021, 07:44 PM   #2546
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Which inclines us to a wider opening range: the blinds being rake-aware and consequently folding more, or being rake-unaware and consequently spewing chips OOP?
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Old 05-06-2021, 11:16 PM   #2547
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Being rake aware obviously wins us more money on the button but fortunately most are not adjusting to the rake. I say fortunately because overall youíd rather be in a loose game that doesnít tighten up due to rake constraints.

I guess the synthesis of what youíre saying versus the question Iím asking is that if itís a common spot for everyone to fold to the button itís probably not a good game.
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Old 05-07-2021, 11:02 AM   #2548
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
How low do you guy's go regarding 3 betting suited connectors on the button?

T9s is borderline for me. 89s if I knew it was going to hit
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Old 05-07-2021, 12:35 PM   #2549
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by checkraisdraw View Post
I guess the synthesis of what youíre saying versus the question Iím asking is that if itís a common spot for everyone to fold to the button itís probably not a good game.
If the maximum rake is 1BB, it probably isn't a good game.
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Old 05-07-2021, 05:42 PM   #2550
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

8 dollars is .5 BB
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