I’d fold

This is exactly how I felt which leans me towards just folding and waiting for a better spot.

ATo is an easy three bet.....A9o?

A8o on the button?

I think AT is a good cut off. A9 and A8 just have such poor playability postflop when you know you are getting stiff resistance.

You shouldn't have had to post this. The best player in Washington State is right and, not to be mean about it, everyone else should know it too w/o much thinking.

Not commenting on if you should call or fold with 74o here


But who cares if you have a bet out there already. It’s irrelevant.

You are getting x-1 in the CO and have to put in one bet. Is it worth it?


Like if a random limps in MP and another random limos MP1. Are you overlimping 74o? Prob not.

How well does A8o play 5 ways


Not great Bob

6 handed.

TAG CO opens, bad, loose, calling station calls SB....we have 94o in BB.

Seriously?

So your Vpip is 88. Got it.

Congrats. We found one I’d fold!

Your argument here is like saying big blind defense is irrelevant. You’re essentially saying that defending the big blind is the same as limping along from late position.

I’m just going to go ahead and disagree and exit this debate.

The BB is different from limping because you are generally getting better odds. But we have already accounted for the odds received in these comparisons.

I too would quickly fold this. I posted this for two reasons

1) I was rewatching an instructional video featuring a highly respected coach and player. He was observing the play of another player and this hand came up. When the CO opened he said he would consider defending if the big fish in the SB called. He later admitted 94o is crap and seemed to walk back calling with it. However, the fact that he even considered calling here made me wonder if I am playing way too tight in the blinds. I would defend 97o here. Also, after watching again it appeared the CO numbers were 35/27 so maybe he is more lag/Tag.


This was a 10-20 online game. It was played several years ago. Maybe defense ranges have evolved since then.

2) I saw Donjuans defense range in the no content thread which is plus 90%. I could see 65-70%.

Basically, I'm hoping to hone in on a closer to correct defense range. I'd love to here your thoughts. I'm gonna post more defense hands.

Lol. This doesn’t seem to be the place to come to for good intel on blind defense.

The people I know who still play a lot/well have become much more loose in these spots. You also see it in things like UTG ranges and 3 betting ranges.
I've come to peace with ideas that online geniuses play hands for profit that would kill my BR. Part of this is from people who played with tpirahna in LA and told stories -- my response was A) go make a few million online in tough games and then play all those hands you want and B) who knows if that guy even cares at stakes as small as 100/200. (T is one of the GOAT, so who knows?)

Going to guess that the machines are tenacious getting a price in the blinds. They're not worried about losing money on later streets, because they have poker magic and don't.

97o is defensible. 94o is really bad.

What odds are you willing to put in a bet that both tpirahna and donjuan play it, like it is their job. Either one folds, the "is really bad" side wins. Not offering a bet, but wondering how sure you are. You need 10:1 to bet $? You'd give 3:1? What's the line on both playing it?

I fold. I suspect they both play.

It’s irrelevant if Jesus himself calls there. It’s a bad call.

Mods, apologies in advance if I quote posts from other threads is a violation on 2+2.

Maka2184 would fold 94o preflop. +1 with TheHip41 that calling with 94o in BB vs CO open is bad.

<DonJuan's take on BB defense vs BTN Open (From MidHigh LHE LC/NC Thread, Not CO vs BB but Comparable>
DonJuan, apologies in advance if this is my misunderstanding of how you were trying to communicate BB defense vs BTN open.

Per DonJuan, below in quotes is DonJuan's BB defense range vs BTN open which I imagine is at least somewhat close although not as wide vs CO open as BB.


<DeathDonkey's Insight of Playing Perfect Postflop Required to Defend BB Wide (Again in MidHighStakes LC/NC post about BB defense vs BTN Open)>
DeathDonkey, apologies in advance if this is my misunderstanding of how you were trying to communicate BB defense vs BTN open.

Totally cool to quote other 2+2 content, imo. Nice post. Maybe he actually folds vs CO.

There must be something more to it as far as defending such a large range. I suppoe if you are known to be a tenacioius defender people will not try to steal from you as much. This could create more BVB situations were you have the positional advantage. Also, they don't have a clue what you have but you have a reasonable idea of were they are at.

Maybe this is what has made these guy's so good. More hands=more experience.

Loose passives limp in UTG and HJ.....The SB is a TAG the BB is a tight passive.

Whar do you do with...K4s? JTo? A7o?

There was a post from a long, long time ago where a very strong player made this precise argument. His statement was something like "I didn't really learn how to play great poker until I started playing more hands than everyone else."

Maybe it was Schnieds? Or something like that. It was probably at least 10 years ago.

More hands is fine

Playing 94o there means you are playing all the hands. Which is bad.

Also, things Schneids might do at high levels has no bearing on what you should be doing at 10-20 or 20-40

This is both true and false.

Let's say that 94o is a marginal loser at 20-40. From a strict-present-tense EV perspective, folding it is best by definition. However, if playing these hands starts to give you experience and you learn how to play better postflop poker as a result, the fact that it's currently a marginal loser can be understood as the cost of an education that may pay off in future dividends.

If I remember right, I believe that was one of the main points of the post. Playing lots of hands is about gaining experience with how to deal with lots of situations that you can learn from, and that those experiences are a stepping stone to getting up to higher levels.