Pre flop check up posts. - Page 63 - Small Stakes Poker Forum

Wider than what? There comes a point of unprofitability. Where do you draw the line? I draw it around 30% with a strong player on the button. I think 38% is much too wide from the cutoff with Mongodig behind me.

I play highly exploitive so T9o is in my CO opening range. I would definitely open tighter from the CO if there was either a super loose player or a strong player on the BTN. I don't play in many games where there are legitimately strong players though. Plus, I try to make sure tight players are on my left as much as possible.

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11-22-2017 , 03:00 PM

#1553

Bob148

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 11,972

Ok, the question as posed by Mongodig wasn't "what range should we open in a good game from the cutoff?" it was "should I 3 bet JTo, QTo, and KTo?"

Now, let's say that there's a strong player, giving respect to Mongodig, on the button. What's your opening range? I think that if KTo is a good 3 bet vs your range, that T9o will not be a profitable open with the exception of very tight players being in the blinds, in which case we may abuse the situation to the benefit of both the cutoff and button. However, I think that's the exception.

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11-22-2017 , 04:34 PM

#1554

TheDarkKnight

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Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 2,499

To be fair, I wasn't trying to answer his question at any point in time. I got pulled into this debate simply because I thought it was weird to prefer 3-betting KTo from SB rather than from the BTN, even with the change in dynamic (CO open vs BTN open). I just can't get behind that though process.

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11-22-2017 , 06:33 PM

#1555

Garwin

newbie

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 44

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight

Not only are you up against a wider range on the SB but the money you have already invested in the pot outweights the advantage of position. I remember reading something about this in Tpiranha well and thought it was weird too.

Here's the exact quote :

"You actually need less equity from the small blind because of the money you have invested in the pot preflop - you can 3-bet more hands profitably from the SB vs. the CO than from the button vs. the CO."

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11-22-2017 , 07:40 PM

#1556

TheDarkKnight

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Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 2,499

I don't know the source but I'd like to read more about that. It's always nice discovering your thought process has been wrong about something this whole time. Leveling up is the nuts.

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11-22-2017 , 08:00 PM

#1557

AlanBostick

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The wider SB 3-bet range is definitely described in Winning in Tough Hold'em Games. See the section on Re-Stealing (pp 72-77), particularly the discussion on p. 74 and the table on p. 76.

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11-22-2017 , 11:14 PM

#1558

DonkeyOnTilt

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Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,002

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garwin

This is great. Thanks for digging up old wisdom from a wise man. Tpiranha took plenty of my money pre-black Friday.

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11-23-2017 , 02:34 PM

#1559

mongidig

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 5,654

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garwin

Is this quote supposed to read SB vs the Button? Instead of The CO?

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11-23-2017 , 03:57 PM

#1560

DonkeyOnTilt

adept

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,002

3 bad to awful players limp. You have 89o on the button. Blinds are tight. Play?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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11-23-2017 , 03:59 PM

#1561

TheDarkKnight

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Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 2,499

Playing is fine. Folding is fine.

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11-23-2017 , 04:36 PM

#1562

PLBlow

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 445

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonkeyOnTilt

3 bad to awful players limp. You have 89o on the button. Blinds are tight. Play?

call, raise 89s

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11-24-2017 , 09:18 PM

#1563

SetofJacks

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Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,378

Quote:

Originally Posted by PLBlow

call, raise 89s

Agreed

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11-25-2017 , 10:46 AM

#1564

mongidig

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Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 5,654

Are you guy's playing the 98o because the players are awful or would you call here with this many limpers anyway?

Is this the bottom of your range?

If everyone had called to you on the button would you come in with worse?

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11-25-2017 , 12:55 PM

#1565

DonkeyOnTilt

adept

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,002

Quote:

Originally Posted by mongidig

I was asking because they were so bad. I would've gone down to 78o imo.

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11-25-2017 , 05:04 PM

#1566

jdr0317

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I would limp along exclusively from the button here. There's a lot of value in having position here.

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11-26-2017 , 03:59 AM

#1567

SetofJacks

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Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,378

I would also limp 87o.

I'd raise T9o with the hopes that I can take a free card sometimes.

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11-26-2017 , 09:45 AM

#1568

mongidig

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Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 5,654

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetofJacks

I would also limp 87o.

I'd raise T9o with the hopes that I can take a free card sometimes.

Awful players donk, awful players limp reraise, Sometimes the blinds wakes up with a hand and you get 3 bet. It doesn't seem worth it to me to raise just to get a free card sometimes with a hand this weak. You may get a free card anyways.

I don't mind raising thin, but I'm doing it against less players and looking for more benefits.

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11-26-2017 , 10:15 AM

#1569

SetofJacks

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Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,378

Would you raise JTo on the button?

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11-26-2017 , 10:17 AM

#1570

Bob148

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 11,972

Vs a bunch of limpers, I raise KJo, but I'd call QJo when I'm on the button.

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11-26-2017 , 12:05 PM

#1571

mongidig

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Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 5,654

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetofJacks

Would you raise JTo on the button?

I just overlimp JTo, QJo. I also limp KJo but raising is fine. I raise KQo.

QJo and KJo are hands that have decent equity but not so much to where I feel like I'm leaving money on the table. I like having hands that I can limp and flop a strong pair with a strong kicker that aren't exactly killing it equity wise. That being said, against some lineups, KJo is probably killing it and should be raised.

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11-27-2017 , 05:08 PM

#1572

SetofJacks

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Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,378

These seem like fine thoughts for small stakes where people limp big hands.
At mid stakes (and I understand I'm currently posting in SSLHE), I feel limping a hand like KJo or QJo would be a mistake since limping ranges are soooo decapitated.

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11-27-2017 , 08:17 PM

#1573

monikrazy

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Overlimping 78 and 89o on the btn is fairly thin, think it is closer to a fold than a call

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11-28-2017 , 02:11 PM

#1574

TheDarkKnight

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Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 2,499

Quote:

Originally Posted by mongidig

100%

I assume we are talking 3+ limpers here.

Quote

11-28-2017 , 02:32 PM

#1575

Garwin

newbie

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 44

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight

I don't know the source but I'd like to read more about that. It's always nice discovering your thought process has been wrong about something this whole time. Leveling up is the nuts.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...-quot-1479652/

@mongidig : I copied and pasted the quote from post #195, so yes it is accurate. According to TPirahna, you need less equity to 3-bet SB vs CO than BTN vs CO, I noticed he talks about this again in post #138 :

"There's a big difference between being in the small blind and being in a non-blind position. That quarter of a big bet that's already invested is a big incentive to 3-bet a lot of hands. You can actually 3-bet more hands profitably from the SB vs. CO than you can on the button vs. the CO."

That's the main difference with the book WITHG, Stox explains that you can use the same equity requirement vs the raiser's range to 3-bet from both positions.

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