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Old 07-05-2019, 03:07 PM   #1
seriously123
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should i not play any more or switch games?

I don't consider my self a new player,Ive been playing 4/8 mainly 4-5years in b&ms.I have read Sklanskys,Millers,Malmuths books and generally can adjust my game.I like to think that i use to do pretty good,in the beginning i could go in make 50- 60 or double through and in some cases make 150 to 450.00 in one session 4 to 6 hours,and sometimes have to grind it out to get myself out of the hole i let myself get into.In the last year and a half to two years i haven't been able to put together much of a winning session and cant figure out why.Some of it i know can be contributed to variance and my own bad play,since i have corrected the bad play issue i have started tracking my cards and in multiple sessions i have found that i am folding nearly 70% of the time due to just having rag cards, Seriously .same goes for last night,im not catching anything and after about 45 min. i decide i have been there long enough without dragging a single pot and catch AJ c of course i was raised by a donkey i call, 8 people to see the flop,flop comes club diamond club.One donkey starts the betting im in late middle position i raise.same donkey reraises and i reraise and go all in.turn comes i get my nut flush at this point we have 5 people in the hand to cut to the point the original donkey has 10/5 suited under the gun donkey on my right has 10/2 off and they both suck out a full house one slightly better than the other and this has been my poker experience for the last year and a half, loosing to idiots like this on a regular basis. am i just that unlucky or should i seriously think about playing no limit??thanks for all constructive criticism.

Last edited by seriously123; 07-05-2019 at 03:12 PM. Reason: spelling and adding thanks.
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Old 07-05-2019, 04:52 PM   #2
checkraisdraw
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

Playing 30% of hands in 4/8 is a huge mistake that can be easily corrected by not playing 30% of hands and also not playing 4/8.
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Old 07-05-2019, 07:14 PM   #3
seriously123
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

so at 30% im still playing too many hand,uh?What ive read on no limit thats on the ultra tight side and yes i realize im playing limit or better known as no foldem,i just figured at 30% in a limit game is tight.one thing i have noticed over the years is if i play tight aggressive i get clobbered if i play tight passive i usually take home more,(that's in 4/8 limit) and as far as not playing 4/8 its pretty much the only limit games in my 2.5 hour driving radius offer from there its1/3 no limit to 5/10 no limit and unfortunately im re building my bankroll form having to use it because of a auto accident.
but thanks for the in put and duly noted.
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Old 07-05-2019, 07:39 PM   #4
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

At 4/8, the rake is so high that the most marginal hands in a reasonable open range will be unprofitable. Therefore your best bet is to only play premiums and hands that play well multiway like small pairs and suited connectors. Playing 30% of hands is lighting money on fire.

Just read Small Stakes Hold Em by Ed Miller and you should do fine. Just remember that full rake is a whole big bet, so playing tons of pots is a mistake you should avoid as much as possible.
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Old 07-05-2019, 08:36 PM   #5
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

Do what I SAY, not what I DO (as bad as I've been playing and acting at the table I have no right to be giving ANYONE advice!):

1. Think really hard about why you want to play poker. Can you HONESTLY tell yourself it's because poker is a fun game, or is there a little voice in the back of your head that thinks you'll be able to use it as a gateway to a significant side income?
2. Do you feel a sense of entitlement that since you've studied and worked on the game and the donkeys are just there to gamble that you "deserve" to win?
3. Compare how much fun you have playing poker when you win vs. when you lose, then do the same for any other games you play like chess or sports or video games or just about anything else.
4. Try this the next time you play (seriously): Before you leave the house, hold up your buyin(s) for the day in front of a mirror and say, "I may lose some or all of this money or I may make money. I'm fully prepared for the former - it's just for entertainment and I don't depend on this money for bills or anything else."
5. I did this for a long time and it always worked, and for some reason I stopped doing it (overconfidence probably): Always be prepared for the possibility that you lose the hand. Doesn't matter if you have AA preflop, you flop a set, you turn a flush - unless you have the nuts on the river there's ALWAYS a chance of watching the chips get pushed to somebody else. ALWAYS be thinking, "If I win this hand, great, if not, on to the next one."

Hope this helps.

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Old 07-06-2019, 02:41 AM   #6
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

Spend your bankroll on poker education. I do not think you're going to be a winning poker player long term based on your posts. It would realllly help to find people you respect who will be honest and tell you "wow you screwed taht hand up terribly and here is why...". I think it expedites development. This can be friends or a coach.


// if troll post, nice.
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Old 07-06-2019, 04:25 AM   #7
seriously123
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

Thanks for the input.I have started to reread some of my low stakes books and have realized that i have had some of my numbers askew.as far as thinking im entitled,not at all,just frustrated.A lot of the regulars i know have quit playing 4/8 l holdem. for a lot of the same reasons i previously stated,too many bingo players they say.they all say that years ago when i first started most of the players im speaking of, which some i consider better than myself,talk about how raises use to be respected instead of people just calling in the hope they get lucky.Thanks for the input ill keep reading and make adjustments and start looking in the mirror.
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Old 07-06-2019, 05:28 AM   #8
checkraisdraw
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

4/8 would be impossible to beat if you had games where people folded to single raises. You want people calling with their 52s or 68o hoping to get lucky. Just b/f more and learn when to lay down overpairs.
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Old 07-06-2019, 01:08 PM   #9
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

Bingo players are where all your money is coming from. It'd be way worse if they weren't there. They make the swings intense but at that high of rake you need those people dumping in the dead money.

I don't play 8/16 unless multiple "bingo" players are at the table.

Just buckle in and play hands that do well multiway and see flops for cheap when you don't have a preflop monster. Figure out who is too passive to raise without the nuts and fold to those people.

Lastly, expecting to build a roll at small stakes live limit is a fools errand. Rake is high and your hands per hour is so low that you need a huge sample to overcome the variance. Better off pouring espresso: you get a constant hourly rate and the people you're with might actually become real friends.
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Old 07-06-2019, 04:20 PM   #10
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

Good no limit players top out around 25% preflop raise % from two off the button(roughly the average opening position in a 6 to 9 player game).

They’re not necessarily idiots.

If an expert winrate tops out under 1big bet an hour (likely at 4/8) this implies very low, or even negative winrate for the rest of us. With such low winrate comes maddening ups and downs. Even experts can have numerous losing sessions in a row.

If you enjoy playing lots of hands you should study tourney play(big antes make many more hands profitable and bubble play with a big stack is fun) or heads up no limit.
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Old 07-11-2019, 02:45 AM   #11
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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Originally Posted by seriously123 View Post
im not catching anything and after about 45 min. i decide i have been there long enough without dragging a single pot
What you describe is tilt. And it didn't take a bad beat/very long for you to get there. Studying strategy is one thing, but maybe you need to work on your mental game too. Try reading Elements of Poker by Tommy Angelo. You need to find a way to cultivate more patience and remain calm in the face of endless ups and downs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seriously123 View Post
i reraise and go all in [on the flop].
Why are you so short-stacked that you would ever go all in playing limit poker? When you make the nut flush on the turn, you want to get paid by opponents with worse flushes (or flush draws), and you want to charge opponents with two pairs and sets the highest price you can to beat you. Anytime you get below $50 or $60, you need to reload. If you can't afford to do that, you shouldn't even play.
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Old 07-11-2019, 03:48 PM   #12
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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Originally Posted by seriously123 View Post
I have started to reread some of my low stakes books
https://www.cardplayer.com/authors/124-barry-tanenbaum
https://www.cardplayer.com/authors/19-roy-cooke

get free trial, maybe they allow you to save the articles of these guys
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Old 07-11-2019, 11:46 PM   #13
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

if you hate the game then quit. dont become an addict.
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Old 07-30-2019, 03:09 AM   #14
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

Think about what you’re saying, you’re claiming that you can’t win anymore because the “donkeys” in your game play too poorly. This is after five years of playing in a card room. Time to find a new hobby.


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Old 07-30-2019, 10:02 AM   #15
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

45 Minutes!!?

The last time I played live (1.5 weeks ago), I didn’t draw anything useful for the first 2.5 hours. Then I got super-hot for about 6-7 hands. That’s all it takes.

I can’t speak to your poker skill, but if you find 45 minutes to be too long to wait for action, LHE is definitely not the game for you. You should expect a cold streak of 45 minutes or more nearly every time you sit down.

Play 6-Max online if you want faster action (and no, it’s not rigged).
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Old 07-30-2019, 07:40 PM   #16
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

Don't want to hijack thread from op, but I have a question that I think is related. So instead of starting a whole new thread.

If 30% is too loose, then how tight can we afford to play without bleeding our stack? I mean, we're usually folding our blinds, aren't we?
How do we make that up? Or should we call more from the blinds?
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Old 07-31-2019, 12:55 PM   #17
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepeeme2008 View Post
Don't want to hijack thread from op, but I have a question that I think is related. So instead of starting a whole new thread.

If 30% is too loose, then how tight can we afford to play without bleeding our stack? I mean, we're usually folding our blinds, aren't we?
How do we make that up? Or should we call more from the blinds?
A couple of questions:

1. Are you always open-raising? If so, good, but maybe tighten up your range from EP and some MP.

2. When it's raised in front of you, do you 3-bet or fold 95% of the time? If your flat call too often, that's a leak (note - I'm not talking about when there's a raise and some calls in front of you). This is huge in limit poker. The vast majority of preflop decisions should be raise or fold.
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Old 07-31-2019, 03:17 PM   #18
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurn, son of Mogh View Post
A couple of questions:

1. Are you always open-raising? If so, good, but maybe tighten up your range from EP and some MP.

2. When it's raised in front of you, do you 3-bet or fold 95% of the time? If your flat call too often, that's a leak (note - I'm not talking about when there's a raise and some calls in front of you). This is huge in limit poker. The vast majority of preflop decisions should be raise or fold.
1. I'm open raising about 80%. The very few times I'll open limp in early to middle position with a hand like K J o is on a passive table where I'm pretty sure I won't be raised.

2. I'm Improving on this. I lean more towards folding a marginal hand like A T with a raise in front, rather than flatting or raising.
But yes, I'll 3 bet jj+ and AQ, AK. It's also player dependant.
I'll flat or raise AJ, TT if I know the initial raiser has a wide range.

I still have a lot to learn. But I feel my play is slowly improved.

My last session of 3/6 I showed a profit of 15 after 7 hours.
Wheee!

If only my pocket AA didn't run up against a set of 7's

Last edited by Nepeeme2008; 07-31-2019 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 07-31-2019, 05:48 PM   #19
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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Originally Posted by Nepeeme2008 View Post
1. I'm open raising about 80%. The very few times I'll open limp in early to middle position with a hand like K J o is on a passive table where I'm pretty sure I won't be raised.
:
if you're going to play KJo first in, ask yourself if you're willing to raise it. if not then fold it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepeeme2008 View Post
2. I'm Improving on this. I lean more towards folding a marginal hand like A T with a raise in front, rather than flatting or raising.
But yes, I'll 3 bet jj+ and AQ, AK. It's also player dependant.
I'll flat or raise AJ, TT if I know the initial raiser has a wide range.
:
flatting ATs is ok if there are loose players behind. i would always muck ATo to a raise unless others have also cold called in front unless the first raiser was loose and i was in late position, in which case i would 3 bet.

i would do an experiment. start 3 betting preflop with a fairly wide range (say top 15% or better) when you are in middle position or later unless the first raiser is a 80 year old guy who can only have AA or KK. even better do it dressed in khakis, glasses, and a button down shirt with a pocket protector so you like like a complete nit. see what happens.

examples. ho hum guy raises somewhere, some people cold call, you have A7s in CO. 3 bet.

you have 89s. 3 bet.

you have KTs. 3bet.

enjoy the variance. you'll lose some pots, but you'll also win huge pots, sometimes with marginal hands, just because you have position.

Last edited by NittyOldMan1; 07-31-2019 at 05:55 PM.
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Old 07-31-2019, 06:59 PM   #20
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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Originally Posted by NittyOldMan1 View Post

even better do it dressed in khakis, glasses, and a button down shirt with a pocket protector so you like like a complete nit. see what happens.

.
Were you at my table??
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Old 07-31-2019, 07:03 PM   #21
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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Originally Posted by NittyOldMan1 View Post
if you're going to play KJo first in, ask yourself if you're willing to raise it. if not then fold it.



flatting ATs is ok if there are loose players behind. i would always muck ATo to a raise unless others have also cold called in front unless the first raiser was loose and i was in late position, in which case i would 3 bet.

i would do an experiment. start 3 betting preflop with a fairly wide range (say top 15% or better) when you are in middle position or later unless the first raiser is a 80 year old guy who can only have AA or KK. even better do it dressed in khakis, glasses, and a button down shirt with a pocket protector so you like like a complete nit. see what happens.

examples. ho hum guy raises somewhere, some people cold call, you have A7s in CO. 3 bet.

you have 89s. 3 bet.

you have KTs. 3bet.

enjoy the variance. you'll lose some pots, but you'll also win huge pots, sometimes with marginal hands, just because you have position.
ok. In all seriousness. Sounds like some excellent advise. But I'm not sure if I'm ready to open up my game that wide just yet. It's a little advanced what you're recommending. If anything, I thought I was still playing too loose and should tighten up some.
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Old 07-31-2019, 08:02 PM   #22
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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Were you at my table??
i doubt it, i usually play higher. were you playing with a thin white guy in his 60s?
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Old 07-31-2019, 09:03 PM   #23
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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i doubt it, i usually play higher. were you playing with a thin white guy in his 60s?
No. It was just a joke.

My home base is the Boston Encore right now.

But, I do wear glasses! You were right about that.

And.. I'm sort of a blabber mouth. Example: UTG raise

UTG1 raises all in to 5

Hero is under the gun3 or middle position 1?

Hero looks at JJ. Hero asks the dealer how much I can raise?

I want to discourage any callers behind.

Floor is called over. After hearing all the facts, Floor decides raise should be 7

I make it 7. One more caller.

Flop is very good. All low cards. UTG checks. Hero bets 3. one fold, UTG calls

Heads up with a side pot.

Turn C, Bet River C,B


Hero scoops. UTG shows A Q o and starts complaining and whining.
"That's all you had? You played like it was a monster, yada yada yada"

Hero throws arms up in the air as if to apologize.

Hero"I'm sorry. I don't know what I'm doing. I know, I'm such a bad palyer. I'm such a bad person."


Hero is sort of a NERD. Hero is having lot's of fun. Hero loves poker!
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Old 07-31-2019, 10:13 PM   #24
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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Originally Posted by Nepeeme2008 View Post
No. It was just a joke.

My home base is the Boston Encore right now.

But, I do wear glasses! You were right about that.

And.. I'm sort of a blabber mouth. Example: UTG raise

UTG1 raises all in to 5

Hero is under the gun3 or middle position 1?

Hero looks at JJ. Hero asks the dealer how much I can raise?

I want to discourage any callers behind.

Floor is called over. After hearing all the facts, Floor decides raise should be 7

I make it 7. One more caller.

Flop is very good. All low cards. UTG checks. Hero bets 3. one fold, UTG calls

Heads up with a side pot.

Turn C, Bet River C,B


Hero scoops. UTG shows A Q o and starts complaining and whining.
"That's all you had? You played like it was a monster, yada yada yada"

Hero throws arms up in the air as if to apologize.

Hero"I'm sorry. I don't know what I'm doing. I know, I'm such a bad palyer. I'm such a bad person."


Hero is sort of a NERD. Hero is having lot's of fun. Hero loves poker!
Correction.
Utg , the main villain, limped. Of course he didn't raise his A Q
Villain folded my river bet and showed AQ after I showed JJ.
To avoid any confusion. If it matters.
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Old 07-31-2019, 11:32 PM   #25
NittyOldMan1
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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Correction.
Utg , the main villain, limped. Of course he didn't raise his A Q
Villain folded my river bet and showed AQ after I showed JJ.
To avoid any confusion. If it matters.
hes a typical bad player. puts in nothing preflop with a monster and then calls with nothing the rest of way.
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