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Old 10-17-2009, 08:27 AM   #1
nerdking
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Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind



Persian- "The thousand nations of the Persian empire descend upon you! Our arrows will blot out the sun."
Stelios- "Then we will fight in the shade."
-300

Any schmuck can raise in late position and steal the blinds. As we all know, that big blind sitting in front of us is equal to one small bet, which is half the big bet. In limit holdem we measure our winrates in big bets/100 hands and at 1/2+ stakes, with today's competition maintaining a 2BB/100 winrate is considered killing the game. Being that 1 sb is half 1 BB, that big blind sitting in front of you represents a quarter of your winrate. This is why blind defense is so important in tough limit hold'em games. Successful blind defense is massively player dependent. In his 300 post milestone, themuppets broke down the attempt to steal stat and much discussion was had on adjusting the hands that we play vs the range of the players that are stealing.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/35...d-stat-589389/

I plan on touching on that briefly, but in poker the money doesn't get from the middle of the table into your stack by magic, so my main focus in this post will be headsup postflop play and various lines that we can take against certain player types to exploit their tendencies. Before I get started, I'd like to lay out the tools in my arsenal when I'm playing a hand. My HUD reads like an airplane's control panel with all the numbers flashing at me. In this post I will frequently refer to four stats, they are villain's attempt to steal stat, street by street betting frequency (bet flop/bet turn/bet river in PT3), street by street folding frequency (fold to flop bet/fold to turn bet/ fold to river bet frequency in PT3), and overall went to showdown. When playing headsup, finding an exploitable anomaly in these stats can be a huge boon to the approach we will take to a hand. The next tool in our arsenal is going to be our notes. I can't say enough on this subject. Stop playing so many tables and TAKE NOTES GODDAMNIT. Take a bunch of notes. Have notes on what your opponent ate for breakfast 3 weeks ago. Notes are information that programs like Holdem Manager and Pokertracker don't collect and the more information you have at a poker table, the better you can play! One of the big things that I learned to take notes on when I played in MicroHULA a few years ago was how my opponent plays the big bet streets. Also, we need to know if villain fit or fold postflop, and what marginal hands he is showing down with the most. If villain is going to show down any weak ace, I'm more inclined to checkraise my AQ unimproved on an all lowcard board and confidently fire three streets. Finally, we have the heart of all poker, the valuebet. In order to make money we need to have a good grasp on the essence of valuebetting. On the old Cash Plays and now Deuce Plays podcasts, the inimitable Bart Hanson lays out for us the four reasons why we bet: 1. to get called by worse, 2. to fold better, 3. to protect our hand, and 4. to prevent being bluffed on a later street. In headsup play and blindsteal situations in limit holdem, the first and second reasons for betting are going to be crucial. In fact, due to the way that most tough players play today we will be dealing with point number one about 90% of the time in decisions in the hand. Many players just don't fold a piece of the board in limit holdem enough to make it relevant to most of our discussions. Depending on the opponent, however, all 4 points come into play during our hands.

With our tools laid out, let's get to the meat of this essay: postflop play. General discussion of headsup postflop play is pretty meaningless because discussion and context is so player dependant. I wouldn't call myself nerdking if I didn't play RPGs and in roleplaying games we create characters to populate our tales of wizards and goblins, so to solve this problem let's create some villains to play at our poker table, shall we? For the purposes of discussion we'll assume that we have 1000 hands of data on each of our players.



Villain 1 is the tight aggressive preflop, passive rocky postflop player that populate so many of the small stakes tables today. He's 15/9/2.6 WTSD 33%. ATS of 13 percent. His street by street breakdown of betting goes 47/52/52. He'll fold 23/20/8 street by street. I'd say that he's the quintessential TAG-fish. He'll be incredibly fit or fold and straightforward in his play postflop. If we look at his attempt to steal stat in a vacuum, we'll notice that he's not actually stealing, he's almost always raising a strong range for value. Against this guy we have the option to checkraise bluff on good boards when we miss. If he pushes back we can easily fold no pair no draw to a 3bet and not have to worry about harming our image because he's merely playing the two cards in front of him. We can obviously check/fold any broadway board as it smacks our opponent in the face, checkraise and valuebet/fold if we catch a pair or a draw and he misses.



Villain 2 is a semicompetent MMTer. He's 17/13/2.3. His WTSD 34 ATS 57 percent betting 52/62/56 and folding 29/18/7 street by street. This is the type of fellow that I like to refer to as Dr Jekyll and Mr. Blindsteal. Essentially you're dealing with two different players, positionally. Early and middle position raises by this guy are standard but he's more apt to mash the raise button if he thinks he can make the blinds fold. He might get out of line or he might not but we can definitely make some moves on him if we need to. Generally, though, this guy will be showing down any ace and any weak made hand for cheap. This guy will probably be more showdown oriented with any pair or any ace despite the board texture. We can also expect some weird plays sometimes as this guy will notice that we're competent players and will try to mix up his image a bit. He's got so much going on that all he'll end up doing is losing value instead of balancing his play.



Villain 3 is feared by many and loved by few. Women want him and men want to be him, HE IS THE LAGTAG! 21/16/2.6 wtsd 35 ats 50 bets 59/64/50 folds 20/15/17. Against this guy we need to be on guard, be ready to balance and mix your play. We're defending a wide range against this guy. Out of position we're almost forced to play fit-or-fold poker. We know he's going to showdown and he'll be firing all the way, improved or not. Be ready for variance. This is the guy who the phrase "I has a pear" was made for when he feels like being aggressive but he can read the board just was well as you and he can handread on top of that. We have to be aware of what hands we've shown down and our overall image at the table. what have we been checkraising out of position? Basically if someone was taking notes on our play what would they have? If our image is one where we only checkraise and valuebet strong cards, we can bluff him if the board comes near the top of our range. If our image is weak we need to adopt a more defensive posture and check/call our pairs on the flop and turn, letting him be aggressive for us when bad cards for our hand hit the board. Remember the Final Guardian in Zelda II: The Adventures of Link? The dark mirror image of you who matches your moves at every turn. He is the goatee'd you from the "Mirror, Mirror" Star Trek universe. He is the Timmy to your Crow T. Robot. Fear him, fear him!

So let's talk hands:

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is BB with 9 7

This is a great hand for blind defense. We can make a strong pair HU, our hand is somewhat disguised if we flop a draw, and our draw is often on the strong end when we do hit. In terms of showdown value, let's not kid ourselves, we have 9 high. One of the things that I don't see discussed often enough in blindsteal situations is just giving up on the big bet streets when we miss. While we do need to maintain an aggressive posture in LHE, mindless aggression is just spew. Remember to temper your three barrel bluffs with just checking and folding when all we're left with on the river is 9high against a guy who goes to showdown way too much.

Hand 1

Flop: A 6 2

Turn: 4

River: 9

Villain 1: This flop has a highcard and is fairly dry. While the ace hits our first villain's range, it's only one card out of 13% field. This flop is perfect for a checkraise bluff as it can hit our range just as easily as it hits his. If we get 3bet here can easily fold as villain isn't paying attention enough to make a note about our image. If we're called I get worried and reevaluate the next street. On the turn the 4 doesn't help us but we can still barrel to maintain our image of strength. If we get called again we're in a sticky situation. The 9 on the river really puts us in a tough spot. Against this particular opponent, we are frequently getting wa/wb by TT-KK after the checkraise. If he is raising 66, we would have heard from it on a previous street. If we barrel this river we're frequently getting looked up by all better pairs and the only thing we're getting value from is 88 and 77 and card removal lessens the possiblity of our opponent having 77. Villain is too passive on the river to bluff a hand worse than our pair of 9s so I think a check/fold line is probably best.

Villain 2: Again I think we can checkraise the flop here for the same reasons as with our first villain and fold if we're 3bet. Same option on the turn but against our second villain we can definitely bet the river as he is more prone to showing down a wide variety of worse hands here because he's too suspicious of anyone who fights back against him postflop. On the river I might even check to induce a bluff in some cases to mix up our river lines.

Villain 3: Against this villain I think we can check/call the flop and reevaluate the turn. Once the 4 hits we can safely check/fold. If we feel like getting frisky we can take the same attack line as we did against villain 2.

Hand 2:

Flop: J J 2

Turn: 6

River: 3

Villain 1: Against villain 1 I would highly recommend a bluff on this board. While any broadway hand with a jack in it is in his range, he'll tell you what he has early on in the hand. He'll easily give up a better highcard hand and may even fold some low pocket pairs to us if we show a standard slowplay (check/call flop, checkraise turn) bluff on this board texture and we can easily check and give up on the river.

Villain 2: Against this villain I'd recommend a fastplay bluff. Again the board is dry and it misses him just as often as it misses us. Again I think just giving up on the river if we get called on two streets is the smartest move as we're always getting looked up by better if we try to three barrel against this opponent.

Villain 3: Once more I have to stress the issue of our image at the table against this opponent. If we have been making a lot of bluffy moves and losing, simply check/calling the flop and check/folding the turn is the appropriate play against Villain 3 on this particular board. However, if we think we can get away with it and we have an image of checkraising strength on boards like this, then again a similar attack line to what we did against villain 2 is in order here.

Hand 3

Flop: Q T 6

Turn: 7

River: 4

Villain 1: This board absolutely crushes our opponent's range. The pot is too small to peel, our pair outs are tainted, as are our draw outs. We have no other option here but to check and fold.

Villain 2: With a wider stealing range and more mindless aggression, I more inclined to check/fold this flop against this villain as well. I don't feel all that comfortable in peeling a gutshot in so small of a pot against this villain. Alternate this line with the response to Villain 3.

Villain 3: Our other option on this board is to simply check/call the flop and peel for our gutshot on the turn. Once we hit our pair we can't really checkraise here as the board is still too wet and that will leave us in a bad spot on the river. Once the river card hits we can't bet because if we get raised we always have to fold so that just leaves another check/call.

Hand 4

Flop: 9 8 3

Turn: 2

River: Q

Villain 1: This is an easy checkraise on the flop and bet/fold two additional streets as villain is only waking up if he has a better hand than us.

Villain 2: Against players like villain 2 I often see a 3bet to a checkraise as an attempt to freecard the turn. We have toppest pair, cap a 3bet. Definitely bet/call the turn as again I see players like villain 2 spazz out on the turn on drawy boards. Once that river card hits, though, we're slowing down on the river as all of the draws get made. I wouldn't mind a check to induce a bluff here sometimes.


Villain 3: Villain 3 has the same line as villain 2 only on the river he knows that that Qs is the worst card for us, so he will bluffbet to get us to fold. If we have been aggressive postflop a bet/call is in order here.

Feel free to tweak the hands a bit and make your own suggestions on lines with which to approach our blind defense situations. I'm open to questions and comments in the thread. Thanks to BigBadBabar, DougL, Jaran, and all you other poor dorks who I converse with on AIM for helping me hammer this post out. I hope everyone learned something from this.


Links and aids in writing this post

DougL: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/35...l-free-549562/

BigBadBabar: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/35...rybody-548888/

Check out these Deucescracked series: LAGs on a Leash, HU Microlimit Balla, The Price is Right, Relentless Assault

Stox's book "Winning in Tough Holdem Games"

Participate in Micro-HULA!



Good hunting and good luck.


Last edited by nerdking; 10-17-2009 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 10-17-2009, 08:30 AM   #2
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

this post is very very good, the way it is filled with organized valuable information that makes sense
I don't think I have ever seen that in a milestone post before, I mean on this level.

I only miss discussion on villan 1.5: the TAGfish that thinks of blind play as BLINDWAR and plays on a whim, often characterized by playing weak-tight for 2 orbits and then flings 8BB with K3 UI based on something like

"This hand I'm gonna play the player and make him fold!"

Last edited by Xylocain; 10-17-2009 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 10-17-2009, 09:16 AM   #3
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

Great article, will keep this in mind when I play you on the tables nerdking,lol.
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Old 10-17-2009, 09:31 AM   #4
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

Awesome post.
+1 for actually making it to the final boss in Zelda 2.
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Old 10-17-2009, 09:59 AM   #5
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

Awesome post. I love the detailed description of each villain type and the way you use them to show how you would adopt different lines against different types of opponents.

My whole interest in LHE right now is centered around blind defense and HUHU play and it does seem like making the right postflop adjustments is crucial. Adding to your list of DC vids, I also got a lot out of Mano a Mule (DD plays against Ali Nejad in one of the videos) and Five's a Crowd.

The other thing I've done to try to develop my HU game is to play the HUHU SnGs on Stars. It's admittedly not an ideal environment (the tournament structure imo has an effect on your strategy, especially after the first few levels, and the opponents are typically really bad) but if anyone is looking for an inexpensive (?you might turn a small profit?) way to practice HU play, I think it's a good way for a guy (or gal) on a uLimit budget to experiment a little.

Last edited by themuppets; 10-17-2009 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 10-17-2009, 10:11 AM   #6
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

nh.
pretty..pretty...prettyy...pretty good.
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Old 10-17-2009, 11:32 AM   #7
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

mhmmm.... George Clooney.
Oh wait, there was some other discussion?
Nah... George Clooney!!!!!!1
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Old 10-17-2009, 12:05 PM   #8
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

Another bookmarked nerdking thread. I can feel my winrate increase just by reading it.

It is good to be king!
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Old 10-17-2009, 12:06 PM   #9
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

nk i like the structure and format of this post. nh.

i'm a little concerned that your blind defense strategy apparently involves so much bluffing. maybe i'm just behind the times, but for my money, c/r 9-high-no-draw on an A-high board with the intent to keep firing is not a good plan against most opponents, even nittier ones.

steal/defense play is obviously critical to your winrate in lhe, but if you lose 2bb trying to win .5bb, that's going the wrong way.
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Old 10-17-2009, 12:10 PM   #10
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler_cracker View Post
nk i like the structure and format of this post. nh.

i'm a little concerned that your blind defense strategy apparently involves so much bluffing. maybe i'm just behind the times, but for my money, c/r 9-high-no-draw on an A-high board with the intent to keep firing is not a good plan against most opponents, even nittier ones.

steal/defense play is obviously critical to your winrate in lhe, but if you lose 2bb trying to win .5bb, that's going the wrong way.
IMO, thinking about the game like this turns you into an empty seat bleeding away at -0.5BB/100 unless your in an SSHE game, and even then I don't think its good.
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Old 10-17-2009, 12:30 PM   #11
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

thanks to everyone so far for the feedback. Tyler, in this article I tried to present a balanced variety of player dependent aggressive and defensive lines when we are presented with a situation where we may not have any hope to win the pot BUT to bluff at it. Against the first two players we are faced with weak opponents with obvious exploitable flaws in their game. Being fit or fold is an obvious flaw and I will look to exploit it at any opportunity I am given at the poker table.
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Old 10-17-2009, 01:33 PM   #12
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

don't get me wrong; winning poker is aggressive poker. but, like, look at this:

Quote:
we are presented with a situation where we may not have any hope to win the pot BUT to bluff at it.
this is what i'm getting at. we're interested in money, not how many pots we can win, and the pots in steal situations are small by definition. fighting too hard for all of these small pots is a sizable leak.

i'm not advocating being a pussy (or "fit-or-fold", if you prefer) all the time, but obviously there's a balance between smart aggression and stupid aggression and it's easy to cross over, especially as you widen your opening/defending range.
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Old 10-17-2009, 01:35 PM   #13
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

Reiterating what others have said, thanks for the great post!

If we are check/raising 97 on flop one then we are basically checking/raising our entire range here. If we have 1000 hands on villians 1&2 then they are probably regs and will likely adjust to our play, at least a little, over time. If they start calling down lighter then the bluffs will turn into big losers so we have to be on the lookout for any specific adjustments they might be making to us. I know that generally goes without saying but when our exploitive strategy is very exploitable I think it needs to be emphasized.
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Old 10-17-2009, 02:02 PM   #14
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

I really enjoyed the post. For people who had issues getting BBB's posts on board textures, I hope this sheds addition light on the concepts.
Quote:
Villain 3 is feared by many and loved by few. Women want him and men want to be him, HE IS THE LAGTAG! 21/16/2.6 wtsd 35 ats 50 bets 59/64/50 folds 20/15/17.
This is a fine analysis of a tough LAGTAG. I would point out that this player has a couple of holes in his game; he looks like a TAG that has recently converted. His AF is too high. His WTSD is too low. If you're ever going to exploit this player, you should consider these two facts. Though he's aggressive, I would wonder how well he handles being played back at. Also, given his relatively low WTSD and his high AF, I would want to consider letting this guy barrel off against me. I want to make sure I'm getting paid off on my medium strength hands.

I don't play enough FR to know the stats of a truly scary player who has a very well rounded game.

21/16/1.5 with a WTSD of about 43%? Depending on how much people play back, I could see a player like this having low aggression frequency on later streets.
Quote:
i'm not advocating being a pussy (or "fit-or-fold", if you prefer) all the time, but obviously there's a balance between smart aggression and stupid aggression and it's easy to cross over, especially as you widen your opening/defending range.
This is true. The disagreement you may be having could be in the difference of "you should fight back on this board" and "if you're going to fight back, consider boards like this". You probably need some bluffing/semibluffing in your range vs. a tough opponent. Always attacking the Kxx or Axx dry boards has the problems you mention.

Another perfectly fine adjustment to a tough steal is to fold more. I know it is a sin to think this way, but, dropping some of the bottom of your range can't hurt. By making your range stronger, your hands become easier to play post flop. If I had to choose between finding some spewy GTO bluffing strategy to slowing the guy down vs. tightening up a little, it wouldn't be close. Many LAGs don't pay enough attention to your new ranges, and it can be profitable to take a strong range up against someone who is all balanced and spewy.
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Old 10-17-2009, 02:23 PM   #15
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Thumbs up Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

U give so much hope ... Can i ask 1-2 more questions, even it`s not only blind-play?! .. If so -


1) Have you ever table/seat-select in this "project"
What i mean by this is - if there are 20 tables of FR going on and you say you only play
like 6 tables - have you had an eye on who is sitting OTB when you`re in the BB then, and so you chose to play this table or not? ...
I play with the same guys all day long and i`ve noticed that sometimes it is better to have Player "X" on the button ,
than to have Player "Y" sitting there. So was this a topic to you, or did you just sat down and start taking notes?



2) Have you ever "coldcalled" a raise in those games (except from the blind).
What i mean is that i hate to coldcall pre-flop, but i see some spots where it would have been profitable for me .. at least i think so ...
I understand that coldcalling can be correct if you can assume that there are some loose players wich will overcall, so you get good odds,
but most of my villains will either raise or fold pre-flop ... so has "Coldcalling" been in you reportoire ?!



3) What is your Raise-percentage from the SB/BB when co/btn try 2 steal?!

I know this is game and opponent-dependend, but i have a very little "Raise from BB %"
and so i would love to know what you`re stats where there.. just for the sake of it


I hope those are reasonable questions and i say "thank you" for your very, very educational insight ! Go pro and become a coach, if you ask me
P.S.: Im a german, so don`t get mad with my "Schwarzenegger-english"...
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Old 10-17-2009, 05:21 PM   #16
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

1. I seat select all the time at the tables I'm playing. If I get seated to the right of a known fish I will decline to sit in the seat and get right back on the waiting list. In terms of table selecting I sort my tables by players/flop and try to stay near the looser tables but if I get seated at a tight table I just adjust to the players around me.

2. I would need to have 3-4 players coldcall ahead of me to warrant a coldcall on the button. Normally one does not see that at the stakes I play. I have seen coldcalls at the 10/20 games by good players but those are always a noticeable range.


3. I'm afraid I don't understand your question.
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Old 10-17-2009, 07:04 PM   #17
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcoffee View Post

3) What is your Raise-percentage from the SB/BB when co/btn try 2 steal?!

I know this is game and opponent-dependend, but i have a very little "Raise from BB %"
and so i would love to know what you`re stats where there.. just for the sake of it
For SB 3 betting ranges, the method in WITHG is very good. Look the opening range of your opponents. Find hands that have good equity against those ranges. You're going to be out of position for the rest of the hand, so consider that. Also, if the big blind is very loose or very aggressive, consider that. Consider your skill relative to the raiser; does he play well in position post flop? Finally, will the raiser become fit/fold if you 3 bet him? They do a very nice job in the book laying out how they came up with their ranges for pre-flop actions.

Quote:
P.S.: Im a german, so don`t get mad with my "Schwarzenegger-english"...
Your English is great. You could also post in German and trust some of our European posters to help out. There are a lot of German speakers on the forum, imo.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:01 AM   #18
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

Quote:
Originally Posted by nerdking View Post
1. I seat select all the time at the tables I'm playing. If I get seated to the right of a known fish I will decline to sit in the seat and get right back on the waiting list. In terms of table selecting I sort my tables by players/flop and try to stay near the looser tables but if I get seated at a tight table I just adjust to the players around me.

2. I would need to have 3-4 players coldcall ahead of me to warrant a coldcall on the button. Normally one does not see that at the stakes I play. I have seen coldcalls at the 10/20 games by good players but those are always a noticeable range.

3. I'm afraid I don't understand your question.
THANKS 4 THIS!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
For SB 3 betting ranges, the method in WITHG is very good. Look the opening range of your opponents. Find hands that have good equity against those ranges. You're going to be out of position for the rest of the hand, so consider that. Also, if the big blind is very loose or very aggressive, consider that. Consider your skill relative to the raiser; does he play well in position post flop? Finally, will the raiser become fit/fold if you 3 bet him? They do a very nice job in the book laying out how they came up with their ranges for pre-flop actions.

Your English is great. You could also post in German and trust some of our European posters to help out. There are a lot of German speakers on the forum, imo.

THANKS!

I was just wondering if their is something like a "magic number" for this, but while asking this question - i allready felt there will be no easy answer to this.
It`s just to player/situation dependend, i guess. DougL came up with what i was looking for .... ill re-read that section in WITHG and work on this step by step...

As for the German forum - right, i could write/read more, but they are more about NL and other stuff than FL - so i like it here...
....but in the near future i will have a closer look at those guys

Again - Thank you very much! Good luck at the tables and have a nice sunday!
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Old 10-18-2009, 10:22 AM   #19
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

I was actually talking about German speakers on this forum. There are several. Like you, their English is so good, you wouldn't know it by reading their posts.
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Old 10-18-2009, 10:36 AM   #20
lanyi
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

Dragon probably knows German seeing as he speaks a gazillion languages.
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Old 10-18-2009, 10:48 AM   #21
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

Ahh .. ok ... DANKE
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Old 10-18-2009, 10:48 AM   #22
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

Quote:
Originally Posted by nerdking View Post
1. I seat select all the time at the tables I'm playing. If I get seated to the right of a known fish I will decline to sit in the seat and get right back on the waiting list.
While I'd prefer the unknown fish on my right, I'm not sure why this is a problem. Care to elaborate? From the blind stealing POV, tight blinds are great. 2nd best would be a very loose blind who then is horrible post flop.

Quoting JoeTall, "Don't fear the callers. Be afraid of the betters and the raisers." Having a calling station behind isn't a disaster, though you probably have to adjust ranges.
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Old 10-18-2009, 10:41 PM   #23
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

Nice post. I do think Tyler and Doug bring up some good points, however. When you're calling the ATS, how many Aces are in your range that you're not 3! PF? I think c/r the Ace boards is a recipe for getting pwnd against a good chunk of opponents. And c/r-barreling with 9 high has it's own problems as well. Even the 2nd type of player can WA/WB* his weak/middling Aces (in addition to his TT-KK).

*Not technically WA/WB because you're PF 3! almost all the better Aces, but letting you value-pwn yourself knowing he's usually way ahead, but that you'll fold if he raises and barrel if he calls.
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:20 AM   #24
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

let me reiterate, these are suggested lines against specific opponents. These are not standard lines. While ABC poker is oftentimes optimal, it is not ALWAYS optimal. As for sitting next to a calling station, I like to have my seat be as optimal as possible. One of the big things I don't see mentioned is just check/folding bluffs on the river to bad, straightforward players. For example, when A8o just hasn't gotten there and you know villain is going to play straightforward on the river. Pygmyhero talks about this in one of the middle episodes of "Passing the Torch".

In terms of aces in my range that I'm not 3betting preflop, it's somewhat player and line dependant. Not 3betting AK is just burning value. AQ also comes into the 3bet category. AJ/AT is again dependent. I've been known to 3bet suited A down to A8. Offsuit aces I probably stop 3betting all the way at AT again range dependent.
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Old 10-19-2009, 01:55 AM   #25
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Re: Breaking Rock in the Gravel Pit: nerdking on Defending the Big Blind

Nerdking great post. I think this is a good for discussions

Few questions.

1. In first example what range do u put the players on when they open on btn. With that range what of hands range do you think will fold to your c.r on flop containing an ace.

2. Against aggressive players what % do u think will re-bluff on the turn.


3. Do u think it worth to risk 2 Big bet most of the time to win 3.5 Big bet on a pure bluff.

4. If you say that you will 3 bet most of the time pre flop on the BB with strong Ax. There not a lot of combo of good hands for you to be C.r the flop with when there an ace right?

Also I think if you flat 100% of your range pf to a steal on the BB your C.R pure bluff would succeed more.
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