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Old 09-09-2008, 01:59 PM   #1
jesse8888
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one card nut flush draw in SB

Live 8/16 table. I have no solid reads and am watching football more intently than my opponents. It is also my 8th hand at the table or so.

3 limps to me and I complete A 5 in the sb. Big blind raises, all call, I call.

BB has asked me twice if I "play bigger" and seems to be trying to play well. I don't know if he actually is though, as I haven't seen him show down.

5 players, 10 bets

J 9 6

I check, and it checks around to the button who bets....and I?
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:17 PM   #2
gobbledygeek
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

Pot is big (5 way raised preflop) so I do what I usually do when someone to the right of me bets in a big pot and I want to continue: I raise.

If we get one other coldcaller, we break-even equity wise on this raise. If we get it heads up, it would be so sweet to fold all pair hands or better Ax hands (which have a tendency to fold on three-to-a-suit flops) and win UI on the river vs another flush draw.

The part I have a bit of difficulty with is what to do on the turn UI if only the Button calls. I usually enter spew mode and lead but I'm not so sure that's a good thing.

BTW: Is it standard to complete the SB with Axo? How many limpers affects this? The more limpers we get, the better odds we have, but man, we are being dominated, like, always.

GcluelessnoobG
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:20 PM   #3
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Pot is big (5 way raised preflop) so I do what I usually do when someone to the right of me bets in a big pot and I want to continue: I raise.

If we get one other coldcaller, we break-even equity wise on this raise. If we get it heads up, it would be so sweet to fold all pair hands or better Ax hands (which have a tendency to fold on three-to-a-suit flops) and win UI on the river vs another flush draw.

The part I have a bit of difficulty with is what to do on the turn UI if only the Button calls. I usually enter spew mode and lead but I'm not so sure that's a good thing.

GcluelessnoobG
gg, all you have here is a draw in a big pot with poor relative position to the aggressor. raising here just drives out our equity and/or gets us owned by better hands.

calling is the clear correct play, imo.
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:25 PM   #4
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

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gg, all you have here is a draw in a big pot with poor relative position to the aggressor. raising here just drives out our equity and/or gets us owned by better hands.

calling is the clear correct play, imo.
I wouldn't mind calling in a small unraised pot preflop. But this pot is big. I want to win it any way I can, and by only calling I think the only way I'm winning it is by hitting the flush.
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:39 PM   #5
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

do you think with this action we are often winning it in any other way?
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:50 PM   #6
gobbledygeek
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

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do you think with this action we are often winning it in any other way?
What action? It was checked thru to the Button, he could have anything. Even if Button isn't on a flush draw like ourselves, I don't think we're all that far behind Jx/9x/etc. hands so getting it heads up ain't the end of the world.
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Old 09-09-2008, 03:09 PM   #7
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

man this would have been so much easier if BB bet out.

As for pf maybe I'm too nitty but I wouldn't complete here.
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Old 09-09-2008, 03:18 PM   #8
DeuceKicker
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

win money, not pots. just call
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Old 09-09-2008, 03:42 PM   #9
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

I complete this from the SB like always. With the BB trying to play well and this ebing live, we know more than ever that he has an incredibly small range for raising his BB.

I cant see anything other than a call on the flop being correct. BB could be setting up for a c/r and even if he isnt, us c/r potentially drives out all the callers.

I call the button bet and hope for calls from everybody in the pot.

I think it gets interesting if we call, BB c/r and all call..........
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Old 09-09-2008, 03:50 PM   #10
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

What's wrong with raising to buy us two more outs? The pot is big and I'd like to win if I hit an A.
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Old 09-09-2008, 04:04 PM   #11
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

if anyone has stove at home, try this exercise.

give the limpers ranges and the button a range. plug your hand in and find your equity.

now lets make the hand HU and give the button a range. plug your hand in and find your equity.

now calculate the change in equity and compare it to the cost of raising vs the cost of calling. remember there is some risk in being three bet.

if your increase in equity is greater than 1 SB, then the CR is profitable. if not, it isnt profitable.
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Old 09-09-2008, 04:10 PM   #12
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

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Originally Posted by DeuceKicker View Post
win money, not pots. just call
How much more money do we really win by calling here? It's not as if anyone is gonna give us a bunch of action when the fourth diamond comes (unless they have a high diamond, in which case they're gonna pay 2 bets on the flop anyways). By calling we make 0.5 SB more on the flop if we get two other callers, both of whom probably won't give us any more action when we hit.

We win money by winning pots (and this pot is already a decent size), and we have a much better chance of winning this one if we raise. IMO.
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Old 09-09-2008, 06:30 PM   #13
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

Depends on how aggressively button is going to be betting. If he's limping a 30-40% range and firing at this board with all of it (if we got all folds our equity would go from ~35% to ~50% heads up vs the button), then we certainly have a profitable c/r semi bluff opportunity. If he's only firing with hands that are going to be showing down then I'd rather play this passively.

The argument for playing aggressively here is that our draw isn't nearly as disguised as it might be on a twotone board. People freeze up and made flushes and will need a strong hand to continue. If we had A4dd on a two tone diamond board I would probably be calling here as we have less fold equity and better implied odds.

I think a strong case can be made for raising in this particular situation if the button is even remotely aggressive. If he isn't then I prefer calling. But absent of reads I think this is a raise and evaluate on the turn.
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Old 09-09-2008, 07:42 PM   #14
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

In this case I just call the BTn's flop bet, hoping that several will stay in, thus building a bigger pot. Raising now will likely blast everyon out of the pot. At least it will in my live 8 game.

My theme this month has been on working on building bigger pots with hands. This is what I have been focusing and working on lately anyways.
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Old 09-09-2008, 08:49 PM   #15
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

I think you call this and hope that the BB had a read on the button betting. If so, he may c/r for you and you can decide how to build a pot from there. You have about 1/3 the equity in the hand, and c/r in to the PFR seems to be less profitable than letting things go as is.

I assume your initial plan was to c/r the BB, trapping the field for 2. Given that this didn't work out initially on the flop, maybe it will work out later.

My stoving says your equity goes from 37%-ish in a 5-way pot to 43% in a HU pot vs. the BB (BTN is FoS and folds to your raise). If the button has to have a pair, you're down to your 37% equity 3-way with the BB or 42% w/o him. Final answer: if several people will call a single bet, cleaning up your outs to gain 5% of a 10sb pot isn't as good as your 37% equity in every subsequent bet.

Doug
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:01 PM   #16
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

If you plan to stay (and you should) I would raise and donk the turn.
I was in a similar hand a couple weeks ago (my first post on 2+2) and by playing the flop passively I was forced to decide on acting on 2 big bets on the turn. If I had raised the flop and bet out the turn I would have been able to see the river for half the price.
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:00 PM   #17
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

Quote:
I was in a similar hand a couple weeks ago (my first post on 2+2) and by playing the flop passively I was forced to decide on acting on 2 big bets on the turn.
If Jesse is in a 5 way pot, he'd relish the chance to face 2BB on the turn.
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Old 09-10-2008, 12:21 AM   #18
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

Call, you have "good" equity multiway not hu.
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:48 AM   #19
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
How much more money do we really win by calling here? It's not as if anyone is gonna give us a bunch of action when the fourth diamond comes (unless they have a high diamond, in which case they're gonna pay 2 bets on the flop anyways). By calling we make 0.5 SB more on the flop if we get two other callers, both of whom probably won't give us any more action when we hit.

We win money by winning pots (and this pot is already a decent size), and we have a much better chance of winning this one if we raise. IMO.
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if several people will call a single bet, cleaning up your outs to gain 5% of a 10sb pot isn't as good as your 37% equity in every subsequent bet.
Doug kind of summed up my thinking here. I doubt our chances improve significantly by raising, but we don't have great implied odds, either. Still, we're not just making .5 SB on the flop, we're making a portion of their future bets as well. I think we'll improve to the nut flush more often than we'll spike an Ace that also happens to give us the winner--and with the parlay of having folded out another Ace. More often the raise will leave us paying more to draw when we could already be reverse-dominated, Ace-wise.
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Old 09-10-2008, 02:17 AM   #20
jesse8888
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

My thought process for the hand was that raising appeared to be pointless. As Babar said a while back, I really think I need to hit my flush to win. Live 8/16 players don't bet this button with 100% of their range; the button likely has something, like top pair, a pair and a diamond, or a made flush. So, I just called. I agree that buying 2 ace outs would be nice, but...well, I called....

Here's where it gets kind of funny.

BB folds (told you he was trying to play good), a random EP player calls, and the other player folds. Now we're 3 ways and the turn comes off:

5 (not a diamond)

I have bottom pair, the ace of trump and first action in a 6.5 big bet pot with only two opponents, one of whom doesn't seem to like his hand much.. What say ye forum?
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:39 AM   #21
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

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Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post

the button likely has something, like top pair, a pair and a diamond, or a made flush. So, I just called. I agree that buying 2 ace outs would be nice, but...well, I called....

Here's where it gets kind of funny.

BB folds (told you he was trying to play good), a random EP player calls, and the other player folds. Now we're 3 ways and the turn comes off:

5 (not a diamond)

I have bottom pair, the ace of trump and first action in a 6.5 big bet pot with only two opponents, one of whom doesn't seem to like his hand much.. What say ye forum?
You put the BTN on TP, a pair + diamond, or a made flush. Of those hands, zero are folding. You have 5 more outs vs. most of the BTN's range. However, 14 outs with 1 card to come is still a calling hand. Given your range for him, he's folding never.

Also, your passenger is supposed to have a . I'd just as soon have him c/c the turn so that he can pay off big when the come, Hope he comes to the conclusion that he has the best given how passively you've played so far.

Not good enough to jam. No hand that beats you folds. You don't want to drive out your customer. c/c

Doug
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Old 09-10-2008, 12:58 PM   #22
jesse8888
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

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Originally Posted by DougL View Post
You put the BTN on TP, a pair + diamond, or a made flush. Of those hands, zero are folding. You have 5 more outs vs. most of the BTN's range. However, 14 outs with 1 card to come is still a calling hand. Given your range for him, he's folding never.

Also, your passenger is supposed to have a . I'd just as soon have him c/c the turn so that he can pay off big when the come, Hope he comes to the conclusion that he has the best given how passively you've played so far.

Not good enough to jam. No hand that beats you folds. You don't want to drive out your customer. c/c

Doug
I mean, that range isn't hard and fast, but you have to admit most of the time he's going to have something from it. Maybe 20% of the time he has something else?

Nobody thinks this street is interesting?
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Old 09-10-2008, 02:06 PM   #23
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

I don't think you fold anything you want to fold. If you thought that your turn c/r sets up a bluff on the river, they're your customers. It would be quite cool, but I'm not sure that your raise buys you the bluffing opportunity. You also might get to pull the "missed c/r play" by checking if it checks through.

Donking seems the strange line to me. I assume you checked, what happened next?
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Old 09-10-2008, 02:40 PM   #24
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

Call flop, check turn and evaluate the action. Call for one. C/f river UI. You don't have enough of a hand to get fancy, and you want the EP paying all the way. Just play this one straightforward.
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Old 09-11-2008, 02:36 AM   #25
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Re: one card nut flush draw in SB

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Donking seems the strange line to me. I assume you checked, what happened next?
I donked obviously

Then the both called, and the river paired the 6.
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