i really dont have a bankroll to say yet i plan on starting one once i'm in the casino i plna on starting at 500 n going from there. what percent of rake do they usually do?

Happy B-day! Get your priorities straight and start figuring out how much you're comfortable dusting off at the Rhino without hating yourself the next morning on your inaugural Vegas trip!!!

Both 2/4 and 3/6 are easily beatable so if you're comfortable about your play just go for 3/6. If you're a learning player you might go with 2/4. I'm assuming the rake at these limits is the same.

Bankroll: sit down with about 25 big bets, i.e. 100 at 2/4 and 150 at 3/6. That should be enough to handle normal swings. In my experience the most you can win or lose in an evening is about 50 big blinds, but those evenings are exceptional.

Some tips:
- Read SSHE if you haven't done so
- Preflop tend to play suited connecting hands and small pairs, but fold top pair hands (Ax offsuit, KTo, etc.)
- On the flop tend to fold anything below top pair without draws.

Either one is fine, and both games probably play the same. You may want to play 2/4 for an hour or so for your first trip into the casino until you feel comfortable being there. There's a lot of crap to keep track of and it's normal to be sort of nervous.

So play 2/4 for an hour, practice counting bets going into the pot, handling chips, cards, acting in turn, etc.. Then once you're ready, move up to 3/6 or higher.

Most people say (and I agree) that you should sit down with 30 big bets give or take a few.

That's about $180 at 3/6, which is a lot of white chips. Ask the dealer if cash plays at your table and if so, put $100 in whites on the table and a hundred spot underneath the chips.

Thanks guys, i'm not to used to limit because i only play no limit at the home games, i've played it online a little, are there any table tips like manners type thing? or any good general advice with hands themselves?

If you play no limit and can keep track of the pot size, then you'll have no problem keeping track of the pot size in a limit game. My advice is not to worry about how many dollars are in the pot, but think in terms of how many BETS are there, i.e. "5 small bets," "4 big bets" etc.. Subtract an approximate number of bets on the flop to account for rake & tip. This makes calculating pot & implied odds extremely simple.

For general hand advice, I'm sure there are hundreds of pages online. Use Google. If you want to get serious, nothing beats Ed Miller's Small Stakes Hold 'Em book, which someone has already linked to in this thread.

thanks, yeah i'm really good with all math involved with poker so thats a none issue really and i plan on buying the book, whats the proper way to tip the dealer?

In 2/4 and 3/6, toss them a white chip when you win a pot, or a couple if the pot is big (or you sucked out). If the pot is small, do not feel obligated to tip.

Some people don't tip during hands and just tip a few bucks (in chips, of course) at the end of the dealer's shift when they get up to leave. That's cool too.

You can play no limit too...


As far as table manners, one thing stands out above all - don't slowroll! Holy crap if you have the winning hand just flip it over already, stack your chips, and get going on the next one! Some people thing that every 2/4 showdown is like the world series of poker final showdown.

For hand advice, remember that small stakes limit (especially live) is a showdown game so playing solid is better than playing tricky/deceptive. It's awfully hard to bluff anyone with a $6 bet when the pot is already $54. On the other hand, it's much easier to value bet a medium strength hand without worrying about facing a significant raise.

GL. You'll get lots of good advice from reading SSHE

Check out the following Brick and Mortar newbie guide:

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...=0#Post2871144

One other quick thought:

Keep in mind that you might end up being a regular at the table in the future and will end up playing these same players a lot, so act accordingly (i.e. first impressions last!). Handle your bad beats with good humour and your big wins graciously.

Very important for any new live player to internalize this bit of wisdom!

Greetings two plus two community

Relatively new to poker.


I recently read a new poker text and decided to try and incorporate some of the info into my small stakes limit hold em game. 1000 hands later I'm down 10 big bets. What I'm wondering is how many hands do I need to log before I can safely say I'm making plays with negative expectation and not just "running bad"?

Is the text by a guy named Phil Hellmuth? If so, you already know, the text is -EV.

If not, it depends on the changes. If it is a big strategy change that affects your overall game, 10k-100k hands would start to show you. If it is something that happens rarely, it could take a lot more for raw stats to show you. Going back over your hands and looking at the situations you changed, you should be able to tell if you're generally getting your money in good or bad. Post some examples and do the session reviews. Make sure your partner knows what you're trying to do.

No no no, bah Hellmuth, pukey, gag, finger in throat, yuck. etc.

It was SSHE, so it was a pretty general overhaul on my approach. From reading several responses to similar questions I can see that 1000 hands is a drop of piss in a New York storm drain.

BTW, your earlier posts in this thread on variance and sample sizes have me feeling a lot better about where I am. Need to revisit the text MANY more times and just work on a hand by hand basis fixing the leaks as I find them. Thanks!

And one more stupid question since this is the idiot thread........

I don't play online, have no familiarity with tracking software so yous guys gotta link with some explanations on the abbrevs? Tanks.

Here's the cliff notes version for fr games. (This assumes that you've got a statisically valid sample size on villain, btw. Some of us begin to draw conclusions at about 300 hands; for others, it might be 500 or more.)

Say we refer to someone as 20/10/2. First number refers to his VPIP or "voluntarily puts money in pot." IOW, what percentage of hands are they playing outside the blinds? A vpip of 18-20ish would be considered TAG; less than 15 or so would be "nit"; high twenties or so would be laggy (assuming other numbers correlate); you wanna be on the left of anybody with a vpip> 35.

Second number- the "10" in our example- refers to his pf raising percentage. Obviously, aggressive players will have a relatively robust number here. They're not cc raises, nor are they open limping pots. Something in the 10-14 range or so for the above described player would characterize him as TAG.

Last number, the "2", is denoted as an overall agression frequency (AF) or value. A "normal" TAG would have something in the 1.8-2.2 range. Numbers in the 0.2-1.2 would generally denote passive players. Values above 2.8 or so are very aggressive players. AF's above 3 or 3.5 for statisically valid spl sizes, especially when coupled with other numbers such as VPIP can often denote that there's "a maniac on the loose."

Now for my disclaimer: This is very abbreviated and generic and meant for illustrative purposes only.

Is there any general rule or convention that relates to thread titles reflecting whether it's a live or OL question? From the limited times I've been in here, it seems that some titles say which, but others don't. A simple (L) would make it a lot easier to get at the content you're more interested in IMO, but as a non-reg in this forum, it's just a suggestion/observation...

I believe it is recommended to indicate in the thread title whether it is live vs on-line. I wish everyone followed this convention as I'd personally like to ignore all on-line threads (being a strictly live player, which I gather is a totally different from the on-line game).

how many hands an hour do you typically get at full ring tables? fast and normal?

I'd guess with shuffle machine, ~35 per hour; without, maybe 20-25% less.

50-75 ish

depends on the number of 20 tablers are on. If you have two or three people playing a massive # of tables, maybe even less than 50.

6m tables, more like 80-100

I'm assuming online. I don't pay attention to fast/normal, so assume that this is a random mix.

Hey guys,

I'm a 6m 100plo player. I have a prop bet between a friend and me to get to the 250,000 fpp bonus. I used to play a very long time ago, and I figured LHE would be the quickest way to get fpps (much quicker than plo for sure). I used to play LHE a long long time ago, so I'm not totally incompetent, but I have these questions:

1. What is the lowest limit that can be beat over the rake while playing 8+ tables? I was thinking I'd start w/ 1/2lhe or 2/4lhe, I'm overrolled for both.

2. Which is better to get more fpps per hour 6m w/ less tables or full ring w/ more tables?

Thanks for the replies.

imo they can both be beaten over the rake and in your spot I would start out playing both of them, prioritizing 2/4 and using some 1/2 tables as filler as needed

I would also hope to run good and move up to 3/6 and 5/10 asap because in my experience those games seem more beatable than 1/2 or 2/4, plus you will earn your fpp considerably faster

but I bleed money lately so take that with a grain of salt

I think you have Q1 backwards; it should be, "what is the highest limit you can beat while playing 8+ tables?". The .5/1 can be crushed while playing many tables. At .5/1 FR, you're looking at about 0.18VPP/hand, but you should be able to 24 table it with a little practice. 2/4 is more like .45 VPP/hand, but can you beat it 8 or 10 tabling? There is no such limit online that the rake is too high because the limit is too small. VPP/hour efficiency, is a different question. Remember, if you're going to play a lot of hands with a WR < 0.5 BB/100, your bankroll requirements are very large. Even at 1BB/100 your 2% RoR is north of 800 BB. The answer to "what is the best limit" comes down to your effective WR at various lelvels and how low a WR you'll accept (and the corresponding large swings).

Q2 for me is a wash. You get more VPP/hand at 6m (larger pots) and more hands/hour. I can play significantly more FR tables. Personally, my 6m game is a little better than my FR game right now; I'd lean towards fewer tables at 6m but YMMV. 6m, you're looking at about .75 VPP/hand at 3/6 and about 1.1 VPP/hand at 5/T. If you can beat 5/T 6m, even at only 80 hands an hour you're talking 350+VPP/hour, which is pretty good.

what numbers are you using? just plugging in quickly 1/100, 2% RoR, 14 for standard deviation = 383+BB

i'm guessing you have to be using a higher standard deviation? for every limit of full ring i've played the numbers converged to 14 so i've always used that. i know its higher for 6 max though