sorry about leaving out the details. full ring. I have been playing 100 nl lately online.. I took a shot at the $20-$40 game at my local casino and after 16 hrs won $100 bucks. I have played 5,000 - 10,000 hands of limit online in my lifetime.

I really enjoyed the $20-$40 game. Some of the players were awful (way worse than me) and a few were very good. I want to play in this game again. I would say that I am an average player right now.

I am currently studying sshe and want to get more hands in than I can at the card club, so, I was considering playing limit online again to sharpen me up for the $20-$40 game.

Somewhere between .5/1 and 2/4 depending on how LOLsoft your live game is. SSHE won't be much help for anything harder than .5/1 OL, and you'll have to game select to find anything as easy as a tough SS game described in a live book.

6max baby, start at .5/1 or 1/2 full ring and see how you go

Read Miller's "SSHE" a bunch of times. It really works!!

Thats my main game, 6-max. I wouldn't start with with less than 300 bbs and would feel better if you had 500-600 bbs. As others have said, that game would be an expensive, even unecessary, way to "tune-up" for a live 20 game. I'd say 1/2 or 2/4 on-line is about right and your 300 bb br would get you in cheaper.

New PSA Recommendation:

WIN MONEY NOT POTS THANKS

I have read 3-4 books. My point was not to say I will play just top ten. sorry. This is where I trying to get:
I see on these forums 1-2 BB/hr is a realistic "long term" goal.
HOW LONG/ HOW MANY HANDS SHOULD I PLAY TO KNOW I HAVE GRAVITATED TO THAT LEVEL BY PLAYING WELL & NOT RUNNING WELL.
pardon the caps.

I'm a huge fan of Mason's poker essays books for this question. You know when your opponents make mistakes that you don't. If you lose 1 BB less than the rest of them would, you're winning. If you make a BB that they wouldn't, you're also winning. If that goes on enough, you know you're a decent winner.

Live, your sample size is lol small. You'll never have a homogeneous group of hands big enough to do effective statistics and draw conclusions. Enjoy your records, use them for gross calibration. If you're not playing professionally, you just won't know. By the time you have enough hands, your play will have changed, your opponents will have changed, or something else will have happened to make the data not one big group to use for your conclusions.

Hm.... so it's best to analyze myself on a hand-to-hand basis? OK.

I have another question:
I want to learn the art of limp-reraising . I tried it with AKs from EP in full tables of no fold'em games. loose raisers in LP tempted this play. I'd limp, get lot of calls, CO/Button would raise, blinds would call, i'd reraise, and there might or might not be a cap. essentially 18-28 SBs preflop. dream situation of AKs. On all occasions, however, I lost. I hit top pair, top two pair often! And get drawn out by runner runner cards or other weak draws. It'd be checked to me, and I am always lost whether to c-bet or try for check-raise. Check raising a bet from LP seems useless on the flop because of the pot size. Even if just call with the intention of a check-raising a blank turn, I am afraid of the turn getting checked around. So i keep betting all the way, people keep calling all the way & sucking out at the river.
So my questions:
1. what is the best continuation for a limp reraise like this (shall I say 3 situations: 2-cards to a straight/2.flush flop, ragged flop, & 2/3 flop cards in the playing zone (9toA)- with me having top pair or top two pair).
2. should I limit trying to build a huge pot preflop to only when I have better position?

Thanks.

It is more of a fuzzy, "look to see your edge" way of looking at a game. It has huge observer bias, and 90% of the people at the table will think they are winners because "those guys are idiots".

Keeping records helps, but you'll never have the answers with real certainty. 100 hours would be 3k-5k hands, you could look there. I re-read your 1st post; seems a little like lolsmallsampleaments + bad beat story with good hands.

1. The best time to LRR is almost never. This isn't something to work on. You do it with hands that want a huge MW pot when you're OOP. That's AA, maybe KK, maybe other PP (depending on how many people you expect to trap), and maybe AKs. You have to be sure that someone will raise for you to LRR; you're throwing away a lot of value if it doesn't work. This is a symptom of FPS.

2. Usually. Depesnds on the hand and table conditions. 88 doesn't mind being OOP, especially in a 9 way pot.

The bit about "I lost my AK hands" is a bad beat story. These are huge pots, no one is folding, and the best hand will win on the river. If you got your money in good, be happy. If you tried to c/r these hands with A-high to bluff out several players, you're the one spewing chips. Even TPTK isn't a lock hand, especially on a coordinated board.

O.K. so I am a moderatly winning player in NLH but recently I have been trying to learn Stud and Limit Hold'em (in an attempt to play the 'juicy' mixed games)

I have been playing Limit for about a month now and my housemate was enquring as to what the difference Limit and NL is. Well...I have read Harmen's section of Super System/2 and looked at other stuff by Hoss TBF and Bryce Parody.

Basically, I have came to the conclusion that Limit Hold'em should be played as if your cards were face up:

-don't bluff
-check call low pairs
-bet middle pairs
-bet/raise top pairs and big draws
-don't try an make any hero folds on the end

I am yet to learn the mathematics but am I on the right lines so far?

What limits are you playing? Live or online?

I'm thinking the key to limit hold'em is value betting; it's one of the most obvious mistakes I see at the table. People bet their two pair / set / etc. to the river and then let the river check thru for fear of a bigger hand, leaving a large portion of a BB or two on the table every single time. Or they don't raise enough hands preflop that do well equity wise against the field they are playing.

- don't bluff; fairly correct, although you will find spots
- check call low pairs; in most cases (especially multiway pots), low pairs should be folded on the flop if you don't hit your set, unless pot is super huge and you only have to call one bet
- bet middle pairs; not so sure about that one, maybe in late position if no one has shown interest in the pot
- bet/raise top pairs and big draws; ask yourself if you want to build a huge pot (ex. when you're on a big draw) or whether you want to face the field with 2 bets cold to protect a vulnerable top pair; then ask yourself where the bet is most likely going to come on the flop (perhaps due to preflop action) and base your flop action (i.e. bet/3bet vs check/raise) on this
- don't try and make any hero folds on the end; ya, in big pots you should usually be calling one bet on the river with appropriate hands

- read SSHE; it's all there

ETA: All comments intended for live games only.

GcluelessnoobG

If you don't want to be a LHE expert, and just want to hold your own in mixed games till you get to your bread and butter rounds, then, yeah, you're on the right track.

It all starts with good PF hands, and as GG said, value bet.

playinging live £1/£2 and £2/£4, the exchange rate is at about 1.5$ to the £

i don't know about the face up part, but good hand selection, aggression, and valuebetting are going to be key, same as in nl

Hello all,

Been lurking here for some time, enough time to see Small Stakes Hold 'em mentioned as the sort of "handbook" for small stakes play. I regularly play small stakes limit games at a casino. My question has to deal with the chart on p. 83 regarding big blind play in a loose game. If I'm reading the chart correctly, it's telling me to fold hands such as A-10 off and Q-J off to one bet in the big blind. I know these aren't rigid recommendations, but in a loose game, are you really supposed to fold that kind of hand for $2 more, with a pot of say $20-$24 (assuming 5 or 6 players calling)? Am I missing some assumptions or not understanding the situation? Otherwise this is a huge hole in my game, for sure. Thanks for any advice.

I'll be interested in reading what the veteran players/posters say about this, but here's my 2 cents.

It is so tempting to play these hands in EP, esp with a bloated pot. I admit that I will call sometimes with these hands in this spot when I feel confident that I can outplay a weak field postflop. The main problem is that you will very often be dominated (likely by the raiser). So you must be able to make a good read on your opponents and be able to get away from top pair, esp with hands like QJ or A10 when you flop an A.

Also keep in mind that you are out of position, which is awful with hands like this, esp if you are stubborn.

Basically, see SSHE 73-73 "Little offsuit broadway." (This book is about discipline, +ev aggression, and breaking the habits of a bad player. Playing these hands in EP can be a costly habit long run.)

The idea is that these hands are dominated by the tight preflop raising ranges that you'll see from many extremely passive players, and that you have reverse implied odds problems when you hit one pair, play it aggressively, and it's no good. If your preflop raiser doesn't play like this, that recommendation goes out the window.

I don't think I'm too far wrong in saying that most around here are playing just about all these hands once 5-6 players have already gotten involved. You may need to tread carefully with one pair, but, c'mon.... POT ODDS!

You should get PokerTracker and run some sample sims to see how these hands fare hot/cold against various types of hand ranges. Give the PFR KK+ and see how it holds up against a bunch of players limping in with their top 30-50% of hands. Play around with different ranges, and I'm pretty sure you'll learn something.

I don't have the book with me but if a player with a tight raising range bumps it from UTG and you are in the BB then you need to fold those hands you mentioned with the heavy RIO. However, once there are 5-6 other players even hands like 84o (and certainly ATo and QJo) are playable getting 13:1 and closing the action preflop.

I know you meant to type PokeStove.

what the above gentlemen said.

p74 talking about "Little Offsuit Broadway" like AT and QJ: "It is essentially never correct to play these hands against even a loose raiser." Most of that ties into p61-63 on cold-calling raises

I could spend an entire post analyzing SSHE. Basically, I think SSHE believes that typical readers have a ceiling to how well they can play. One thing that I think the book does is advocate bloating the pot with small equity edges on the early streets to make the later streets as automatic as possible. I mean, look at the huge chapter on playing the turn. Another thing is that the book advocates against getting involved in marginal situations when the pot is still relatively small. Sure, it's raised and multi-way, but the pot is still small compared to what it often will be. I feel like ATo and QJo are profitable hands for players who aren't showdown-bound if they flop top pair. The authors of SSHE have made a judgment that their readers are unlikely to be that capable and advocate against playing what are, at best, marginally profitable hands.

Don't get me wrong. SSHE is a very good book. It's just that it necessarily simplifies things for its audience and there are levels of play beyond what is in the book.

The true answer for whether or not you should play ATo and QJo in the BB for one more bet is: it depends. Even if you have two players with the top 30% of hands, two with the top 40%, and a guy raising any pair, any ace, and any two broadway (not a completely accurate sim, since it assumes players are not raising premium hands), ATo is still the worst hand but playabile. But it does much worse if the raiser has a tighter hand range like JJ+/AQ. So, to a certain extent it depends on how loose everyone.

The main problem, as stated above, is that you are in danger of being dominated. Because you are not suited, if you flop a second-best top pair, you don't even have the escape of sometimes hitting a flush. So, these offsuit hands have reverse implied odds. You pay more bets when behind than you gain when you are best. Thus, you have to be very careful with playing hands like these, whose value is tied up in making top pair. ATo is not particularly valuable when you have to worry about being outkicked if you hit an ace and about facing an overpair if you hit a ten.

SSHE has made the decision that it is better to advocate folding because too many people won't play these hands correctly. If I had to write a book aimed at the same audience, I would probably make the same decision. It's up to you to assess your abilities in determining if you are in the minority who can play these hands correctly. I play them because I trust in my post-flop abilities, but I also fold the big blind more than most. I definitely don't play any two and I don't really think anyone should.

The preflop guidelines are just that: guidelines. It's okay to deviate from them, but you had better understand why you are doing so.

Hello everyone…..

I’m a new poker player. I’ve studied quite a number of books on poker theory. I’ve been a consistent winner when I practice against the computer in both the beginner and expert levels for limit hold ‘em against a number of different software poker games.

When I play in Atlantic City, I seem to win in the beginning (first twenty minutes or so) and then slowly loose all my chips. My chips bleed via the blinds, flops I pay to see but don’t hit with recommended starting hands, being drawn out and the occasional mistake.

I’ve heard from multiple sources (Phil Hellmuth, the guy sitting next to me at the 2/4 table yesterday, as well as other acquaintances) that 2/4 is a terrible game and not to play it because over time the casino takes the chips.

So basically I want to know if it’s possible to win in this low limit game or should I pursue a higher limit game or switch to learning NL? If 2/4 is possible to beat in the casino, what might some next steps be to improve my game or am I just hitting a streak of bad luck?

Thanks,
thepokernewbie

I play the borg 10/20. I started at 2/4 then 3/6 then 5/10 et. IMO 2/4 was barely beatable with the rake. Now add another $1 for the BBJP and I do not believe a very good LHE player can beat the 2/4. 3/6 is a little better and the way its played at the borg shouldn't cost more than the 1/2. At 3/6 some are TRYING to play poker. At the 1/2 they are all playing slot machines. I suggest you give the 3/6 a shot and consider (if your bankroll allows) 5/10 to get a little breathing room from the rake and bad beat $1. If your bankroll does not allow, play 3/6 nitty tight and grow that bankroll so you can move up.