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Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

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Old 05-05-2010, 03:36 PM   #201
Leroy2DaBeroy
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

I can't think of any off the top of my head.

It's all relative anyways. Your showdown range is going to vary by # of players in the hand, what type of players they are, how big the pot is, how scary the board is, etc.

I would start with showing down TPGK a lot and varying that by the factors above. IMO, what's more important with both better and worse hands that you showdown is how you get there. If you have MPGK maybe you value-check the turn instead of bet/bet/bet. If you have bottom 2 pair and a passive c/r you on the turn, maybe you don't stick that 3! in.

Short answer: it depends.
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Old 05-05-2010, 04:16 PM   #202
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroy2DaBeroy View Post
The answer's in your blind play, primarily, IMO.

You're getting smoked in the SB and merely beat in the BB. Are you completing/calling in multiway pots often? I'd look there for some issues postflop, especially with regards to your WTSD.

Edit: Filter for when you called or 3! from the BB vs. an ATS. I happened to do this recently for my last ~12k hands and I was +BB/100.
Defending my big blind against a steal raise (heads up scenario): -8.32 BB/100
Defending SB in same spot: +6 BB/100

defending BB against ATS with a cold caller: -78.99 BB/100
Defending SB against ATS with a cold caller: +17 BB/100

Overall

Defending BB: 38.2% (reraise 8.5%)
Defending SB: 11.7% (reraise 8.7%)

I'm not sure what this is really telling me. My overall stats are skewed in this area because I only recently started upping my defense range after reading WITHG....coincidentally that lines up with when I started going south, but I don't want to blame my results on that.

During my 3000 hand bad run those same stats are.....

Defending my big blind against a steal raise (heads up scenario): -37 BB/100
Defending SB in same spot: +161.8 BB/100

defending BB against ATS with a cold caller: -75 BB/100
Defending SB against ATS with a cold caller: -150 BB/100 (sample of 1)

Defending BB: 47.1% (reraise 12.2%)
Defending SB: 12.2% (reraise 9.8%)


These samples are much smaller than the first.
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Old 05-05-2010, 04:25 PM   #203
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

I think your SR with avoidthe9to5 will help you. You can also sign up for a BB specific mini-review.

Too bad you missed uHULA as that would have helped too, IMO.

You could always play some lower limit 6M in your spare time or some play money (or nano-stakes HUHU).

Edit: What's your WTSD when calling or 3! PF in the BB vs. an ATS?
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Old 05-05-2010, 04:36 PM   #204
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroy2DaBeroy View Post
Edit: What's your WTSD when calling or 3! PF in the BB vs. an ATS?
I'll get back to you later on that number. I closed down my laptop to go home for the night.

btw: I'm really looking forward to the session review. I definitely think it will help. Hopefully I can be as helpful to avoidthe9to5 as I think he will be for me.
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Old 05-05-2010, 06:37 PM   #205
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroy2DaBeroy View Post
Edit: What's your WTSD when calling or 3! PF in the BB vs. an ATS?
When simply defending (VPIP=Y) I am:
WTSD: 35.8
W$SD: 50%

When only looking at 3! for a defense I am:
WTSD: 48.6%
W$SD: 55.6

I'm winning 24 BB/100 when 3! a steal.
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:52 PM   #206
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Over past 2800 hands been running at -2.1BB/100 with no idea why except I reviewed 11 hands that that were a huge swing of around $70 bucks so I start tooling around and trying to figure out what the real reason is at that many hands doesnt result in it in my eyes.

Here is what I discovered I think It makes up for it to some extent

Fold BBtS - 70.43
Fold SBtS - 86.01

BB/100
BB -.18
SB -.12

In checking out prior the BB/100 is reasonable

But over past 2800 hands
Fold BBtS - 69.70
Fold SBtS - 68.18

BB/100
BB -.35
SB -.22

Looks like I am ****ing up my blind play lately which is not helping.

My VPiP is the same while I have increased my PFr/3betPF but my AFq has dropped 5 and my CCPF has dropped .75 though its still over 2 which is not good (just struggling to 3bet when I never would have before it seems like)

Everything else is staying around the same, seems like variance/bad blind play has caught up with me.... gonna work on it tonight and if cant sort it out on my own hope to find someone to do a session review.
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Old 05-06-2010, 02:17 AM   #207
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Variance! Too small sample size.

If these were your stats over 10k hands, I would suspect you may overdefend the sb.
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Old 05-06-2010, 02:40 AM   #208
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

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Originally Posted by Stormbringer View Post
Variance! Too small sample size.

If these were your stats over 10k hands, I would suspect you may overdefend the sb.
Hope so

I know 2800 is small sample size but never been that bad, honest I think I got overaggressive out or blinds and getting involved in too many hands with mediocre hands
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Old 05-06-2010, 12:46 PM   #209
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Beating micro limit THE

Forget fancy play

learn to fold when your beat when the odds dont favor your continuance.
learn to quantify draws accurately

Play straight up almost always esp in multiway pots unless isolating then do so with forthought.

be position aware learn how different actions affect your and other players relative position

the 1-2 and 2-4 limits tighten up significantly and require a change in your game. sitll most your money will come from people playing, calling down w/ weak hands. you will be able to move certain players off hands in certain cases but not many. make such plays with carefull forthought
so when you push bare AKo on the flop remember this and dont get called down. check and fold when the pot is against you . Dont bluff.


learn to play the button and blinds well. steals and defense against steals on or by the button and small blind. when to call who and how many from the big blind. raising from the big blind properly


Some folks are huge bluffers but mostly they are not. if they are raising you your weak made hand is probably beat. check and fold if the pot / odds are against you.

solid poker knowledge, self awareness and attentive play, attention to a few fine yet inportant points, and developing these few additional skills and adopting attitudes will help to improve your game and put you into the winning column in your micro limit games and usher you along into the low limits online
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Old 05-08-2010, 12:48 AM   #210
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

I am on the worst downswing I have ever experience (200+) and compared to others its nothing, if anyone can eyeball anything in particular please HELP! Also looking for a session review.

May Stats only:
At least its got a nice shape to it







And yes this downswing oddly happened right when I was done going back and forth with FTP about their bull**** rakeback policies, I am sure thats not it at all
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Old 05-08-2010, 10:46 AM   #211
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GambleGamble View Post
And yes this downswing oddly happened right when I was done going back and forth with FTP about their bull**** rakeback policies, I am sure thats not it at all
lol
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Old 05-08-2010, 05:41 PM   #212
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Was I witnessing things or did Timmer something extensive here that is now....poof gone in regards to my last post ?
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Old 05-08-2010, 05:51 PM   #213
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GambleGamble View Post
Was I witnessing things or did Timmer something extensive here that is now....poof gone in regards to my last post ?
I could have sworn there was a post there too
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Old 05-09-2010, 01:10 AM   #214
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

How in the world are you folding so much to steals in the BB? In tougher games I'm seeing as many as you're folding. It may be that the stat is just counted wonky in the micros. If it's really counting steal situations then you are getting 3 1/2 to 1 on your money. It's right to gamble and you need the practice.

Oh and this doesn't look like it's a 200BB mistake.
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Old 05-09-2010, 04:57 AM   #215
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Trust me, I know my blind/ATS is awful right now and need to fix it but like you said its not a 200bb issue. It is something I compared first 20k vs last 15k that has gotten worse for whatever reason.

I did PM with Leroy in regards and it seems more variance at this point though I am not, nor is anyone else perfect. Its more of a "worse downswing live or online" I have experienced and I am searching for any and all solutions
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Old 05-09-2010, 10:15 PM   #216
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

I'll look at your stats in the morning when I get into work. In the meantime, maybe this will give you a touch of perspective.

My hands at .50/1 - 3/6 since March 1. Notice the 381BB downswong.



Just continue to work on your game. Downswongs happen. If you don't correctly analyze your game and make bad changes instead of good ones, you can just exacerbate the problem.

Brag:
Spoiler:
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Old 05-09-2010, 11:53 PM   #217
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Nice comeback
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Old 05-10-2010, 01:18 AM   #218
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

So, I'm fairly happy with the improvements I've made in my stats and I'm still a slightly winning player but I'd like anyone's suggestions on what the top 2-3 things I should work on if your willing. I need to go to showdown less often is my view of my biggest leak, not sure if I'm right or something else is worse.

I posted my previous two stats on page 1, 7th post. 13.5k of it was at .05/.1, rest at .1/.2.



Thank you.
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Old 05-10-2010, 01:26 AM   #219
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

From what you can read in here from others, specifically the 1 on the first page with progression ideas here are my opinions...

Limp less
Raise more
ccpf less
3bet more
WTSD is about 10-12 too high so you are a calling station
Steal more

Whats your AF or AFq?
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Old 05-10-2010, 03:57 AM   #220
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

PF: AF 0.31, AFq 6.29
Flop: AF 0.81, AFq 36.98
Turn: AF 0.81, AFq 34.35
River: AF 0.94, AFq 37.77
Total: AF 0.84, AFq 36.31
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Old 05-10-2010, 04:22 AM   #221
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Low low low low low...

I play .10/.20 same as you here are mine for May



Im only running at .72/100 as of now but just coming off a downswing and doing some mini session reviews to help me out. Plus I need sever work in Blinds/ATS category also.

My target is this which is what was posted on front page
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...3&postcount=17

Take a hard look at this compared to yours as a reference point.


FWIW: If you were at my table I in general would know anytime you had a monster hand because it looks like that's the only time you show aggression or raise. You are letting too many people into hands against you by limping
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Old 05-10-2010, 08:39 AM   #222
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhereg View Post
PF: AF 0.31, AFq 6.29
Flop: AF 0.81, AFq 36.98
Turn: AF 0.81, AFq 34.35
River: AF 0.94, AFq 37.77
Total: AF 0.84, AFq 36.31
This is low!

Check your PC....see if there is a bet button on it. (just kidding).

In all seriousness, what spots are you betting? From these it would seem you only bet if you have a made hand. That is a recipe for disaster. Start betting your draws in addition to your made hands.
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Old 05-10-2010, 10:54 AM   #223
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

GG:
I pretty much am betting top pair or better on the flop, or a cbet if I have something I like still. I'll raise/bet more if the person has a high VPIP but usually not bottom pair or nothing.

I have taken a look at the 3 stat examples Leroy posted and I'm moving towards the lowest stake one slowly.

antneye:
I've been trying to quantify draws that make me money in the end but that's going slowly. It's easy in PT3 to open up the starting hands section and look for the ones that made me money but searches aren't as clear cut for me. If anyone has preferred draws link I'd appreciate it.

Despite playing poker for 5months now I'm still having trouble being aggressive in the right spots. But, I'm dedicated to getting better. Any links to reading are more than appreciated.
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Old 05-10-2010, 11:06 AM   #224
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhereg View Post
So, I'm fairly happy with the improvements I've made in my stats and I'm still a slightly winning player but I'd like anyone's suggestions on what the top 2-3 things I should work on if your willing. I need to go to showdown less often is my view of my biggest leak, not sure if I'm right or something else is worse.

I posted my previous two stats on page 1, 7th post. 13.5k of it was at .05/.1, rest at .1/.2.



Thank you.
1) You open limp waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much. There are games where open limping from EP may be fine, but don't make a habit out of it. But the fact that you are open limping more than open raising from UTG is a leak. If you want to get better and move up stakes, take open limping completely out of your arsenal.

2) Your VPIP from early position is too high. Take some hands out of that range. You can add more hands in late position if you want to keep your VPIP at the 22-25 range, which is ok imo.

3) You are a calling station. Showing down 45% of your hands where most pots are multiway can't be good. But you know this already. This isn't your biggest leak however.

Your biggest leaks are your late position play, blind play, and aggression.

4) Your AF is 0.84 waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too low. Raise/3 bet more. MORE!! You need to stop limping so much. Start iso raising limpers more. 3 bet more. Your pf 3 bet % is only 3.5%, which is 99+ and AK basically. If there's a raise and like 3 callers, you can 3 bet a lot wider for value. Hands like JTs. If there's an open raise in mid or late position, you can 3 bet lighter.

5) Your blind play seems too timid. Your ATS is only 8% from the small blind. But your VPIP is 40%. You're not folding your sb in a steal situation, which is good. But you need to start raising a lot more. To at least 50%. Waaaay too low. I don't see your fBBts stat, but your VPIP is only 14%. Clearly tells me you are folding your BB too much. Start defending more. A lot more.

6) You don't steal enough. 15% from the Button and 10% from the CO is flat out bad. I would raise those to at least 40% and 30%. I guarantee that if you start attempting to steal more, you will see positive results.


Just my $.02. Good luck!
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Old 05-10-2010, 11:15 AM   #225
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

GG:

Here's what I see.

Your Fold to Flop bet seems high, as does your Fold to Flop Raise. Make sure you know your pot odds right and are making appropriate decisions whether to continue or not. If you are the PFR and you have two overs on the flop, you should not be b/f the flop very often.

SB defense is probably okay enough, provided you're 3! the 13% you're not folding.

BB defense is weak. You need to really focus on getting your FBBtS down and learning how to play in this spot postflop. You're not showing down anywhere near enough. Try to think about relative hand values. If he's stealing with 35% of his hands, how often is he missing the flop. How good does middle pair or even bottom pair now become? Don't feel like you have to get all aggro back at him. At this point, c/c down with most pairs (barring really bad boards) will probably be an improvement. You can work on attacking boards and raising for value later on.

Your BB defense is particularly bad vs. a SB steal. I've seen vids where the coach in the BB will defend ATC in this spot. You're folding ~70%. Work on getting that down a lot. Maybe to 40% (still be aware of his ATS% and adjust your range accordingly).

You also need to work on your stealing more. You're not doing it enough, particularly in the SB. Start at maybe 25% from the CO, 35% from the BTN and 50% from the SB. Then you can increase from there.

Overall aggression is low, but stealing more should address that as you're going to be c-betting more on the flop and turn.

You also have too narrow of a PF3! range, but maybe it's okay at this limit where open-raises are more likely to be legit hands from your villains. YMMV.

These are starting points/things to think about, but a lot of what you need to work on is better addressed via session reviews and some overall thinking about what you want to do. I'd suggest looking at some books and developing a starting hand chart for what you're going to steal with and from what position (as a base range - adjust based on Villain's defense #'s), and what hands you're going to defend with (as your base defense - adjust from there depending on Villain's ATS).
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