During my first orbit at an 8/16 live game (9 handed) yesterday, I was dealt KJo UTG+1. UTG open limped. In the brief time I'd been there, there had been a few limpers here and there but also some preflop raising. What's the right move here? I considered all three options but didn't love any of them. Folding just felt so nitty, calling seemed to invite overlimpers with a hand that generally plays better heads up or 3 ways (although had the benefit of inducing people to overlimp with dominated hands like K9), and raising seemed like it would shut out the hands I'm beating and freqently end me up out of position and dominated against anyone behind me with a big hand.

fold

I will raise all day long if I have weak-tight nits to my left.

I will call if I have a bunch of loose-passives who never raise to my left.

I will fold if neither condition (1) or condition (2) is present.

fold +1

Depending on the line up, all 3 options are viable.

First orbit you have to use default plays for the limit till you get a read on table conditions and players. At 8/16 my default play would be to fold KJo in EP.

These are both the way I look at the situation myself. Second one is most important.

Fold is fine with zero reads on UTG or table.

Fold.

Way too many people still to act (there is some chance you can get raised), you have to play the hand out of position, and you have a hand that is easily dominated by others who might call or raise.

I also like all 3. If I was a few positions later, this is for sure a raise.

I did end up folding but felt like it was quite nitty. I'm glad to hear it seems to be the consensus play.

Open folding KJo and ATo UTG is a smart play in raketrap games, so folding after one limp isn't too far out of line.

I'd call, you can get a hand in before your first drink comes. Then you can settle in and get properly LAG.

That would be my default read for a live game.

Raizitup.

Doug, I am not sure if that is +EV poker, but it is definitely +EV at life.

My biggest fear in playing a dominated hand is doing so against someone who will make me pay the max when I'm behind. The question here with domination is this, do we have a dominated or dominating hand? If you villains play KTs+, KQ, ATs+, AJo+, QJs, and 99+, you've got a dominated hand. If your villains play K8o+, Kxs, Qxs+, Q9o+, Jxs, etc, you have a dominating hand.

My concern about raising at some tables is that we get action from only the hands that beat us. While KJo isn't a great MW hand, I'd really hate to put in a raise and help someone who dominates me to 3 bet, clear the field, and play me HU in position. The good player who understands my iso-raising range and can play position discourages me, especially if no fish will school with me to protect me from him.

At some tables, the raise will drive out only the good players. Think about that, the better players fold (or tell you you're screwed when they 3!) and the worst players play exactly the same range of hands as before. Now, raising is genius. The "trying to play good poker" guys who always raise or fold b/c they've read it here are perfect in this spot. They don't quite get the idea that they can play a bunch of MW hands in a 6 way pot and are trying to play perfect poker just like they read about.

I think about this hand UTG+1 at a Stars 5/T or 10/20 table, and a new dynamic comes in. Now, I'm still decently likely to get 3 bet. A four bet is not unlikely. I have to worry about the UTG limper's range being dominating, that depends on the player. In that game, this hand seems a bit light. I expect to be put in a bunch of tough spots by people who know exactly what I'm doing.

So, the tl;dr version of my flip answer before.

Nice post, Doug. To be clear, I don't deny that it is often +EV to limp this agianst loose fish. I just thought that if you couple it with the drinking as you suggested, it definitely provides far more EV than an be conveyed in poker terms.

That is true. leo doc always loudly orders a drink when he first sits down at a table, often at the same time he's looking for a holder for his current drink. I use him as my guide in these things.

In your limited read, you've observed a tendency towards raising. Your response to this hand should incorporate the table's response to prior raises.

Do the raises limit the field (i.e., tight game) or does the raise get cold-called around? If the former is true, a raise has promise but an overlimp does not. If the latter is true, which is more typical of live SSHE, then a raise serves no purpose. And an overlimp just runs the risk of getting you into a bloated MW pot, out-of-position. Which isn't appealing either.

So, unless an isoraise works that this table, which is often not the case at low stakes, then I let KJO -- the Phil Helmuth -- go.