I think the most difficult thing for me in limit holdem is when i'm in those spots where i had or have an ok hand but in spots where unless they're bluffing i'm beat.

In BB AK/AQ type hands and someone raises from middle to late. I sometimes call, i sometimes 3bet just to mix it up i guess. Flop comes j or 10 high no striaght draw for me. If i 3 bet i will continue, he calls, blank turn, now what do i do? I usulaly bet call or check call but never fold and call river. If i just called preflop now i usually call flop. Turn blank he bets i usually call again. He bets river i usually call again. But feels yucky. My thinking if i got that far to the river for one more bet it worth to see if they been just bluffing whole way since i didn't show aggression. But feels yucky. Is this right?

2nd situation...

In bb and flop 2nd or 3rd pair against middle or late raise but on ace high flop. Like Aq2 you got q9. Or A87 you got 67. I usually check call down in prior and call and sometimes checkraise in latter. Checkraise to try get them to fold hands that have value against me but might fold to a checkraise i want to fold. Like the qj, kj, j10 type hands. Is this raise bad? As in the long run you lose money because when they have you and when they dont might call with the hands you try to checkraise off anyway? And what about when they call the checkraise what's the play?

3 bet preflop more in the BB and take initiative vs. non-nutted opponent preflop ranges.

that said lots of expert players will just call the BB with their entire range to be balanced. i'm pretty to make this style profitable you have to have a very very good handle on opponents ranges and calculating equity on the fly. I think inexperienced players just lose value and get confused playing this way.

for less experienced players i think the most profitable play is to in guns blazing with a preflop 3 bet.

Against players who cbet the flop 90+% of the time, I strongly recommend always calling heads up pre-flop. The idea is that there is really no need to 3bet since they kind of do it for you by spamming cbets on the flop with their trash. We can then check-raise, so we rarely miss any value. Most importantly, playing this style allows us to focus on our reads or picking up tells. Trimming the game tree like this is super helpful for us humans even if the solvers show that we are losing a wee bit of EV. Complicating things by sometimes 3betting in this situation is likely going to result in mistakes. There are so many more important things we can work on besides figuring out exactly how to split up a 3-betting and calling range when defending the BB heads up.

If your opponent checks back a decent percentage of flops, you can begin 3-betting some hands... especially against a weakish opponent. But is sounds like you are most interested in how to play against regs in this spot.

With AK, you can still fold if the board totally craps on your hand. Like if it is Th9h7c on the flop, Qc turn, 6h river you can def fold. But you usually want to call down decent rundowns unless you have a read that allows you to fold more often (supernit, tellbox, villain raised UTG 9-handed, etc.) If you 3bet pre, the idea is similar... bet the flop and then usually check-call down. In general, we want to plan on calling down A hi heads up without a good reason.

It's also worth noting that you can bluff raise the river with your ace hi sometimes if the board totally craps on your hand. This is especially true against people who get off on making hero folds. But even plenty of decent players will overfold against a nasty river bluff raise. If the rundown has you wanting to puke, always remember that your opponent may hate it too. In fact, it is somewhat suspicious when your opponent keeps betting at a scary board. Shouldn't they be scared too if they just have a lonely pair?

You mention check-raising stuff like 76 on an A87 board to fold out overcards to your pair. This is pretty terrible imo. One of the most important mottos in LHE is "Don't bloat and fold". Check-raising these boards sets up a bloat and fold. After check-raising a weak hand like this, we have to decide whether to fold or call down vs. further action. Both options are pretty miserable. Why put ourselves in this spot? These situations are very easy check-call check-call check-decide on river spots. We usually call the river, but we can fold with a strong read. The negatives of bloating the pot with a weak pair vastly outweigh the positives of folding out some overcards imo. Strong players who notice you bloating pots with junky hands will brutalize you. And even weak players will be happy to see this mistake.

And fwiw, q9 on an AQx flop is a fairly good hand. There's not much to think about. Just c/c c/c c/c and bet riv if the turn checks through.

I agree that it's easier to play if inexperienced to go guns blazing.

Unguarded,

Excellent analysis! I generally play like most of your advice as far as playing the AK/AQ from bb. 3 betting the guys who like to check back flops especially. I usually call down unless a real crap out like you used as an example. The bluff raise river is hard for me because it always feels like people hate to fold there, but i'm sure does work in the spots your describing. I just find it hard to pull the trigger there in limit holdem.

As far as the 67 i hearya. Something i have done way too often and is probably a leak. I think i may have to plug this leak for reasons you mentioned. Just so tempting to get guys off hands that you think would fold that have 6 outs to beat you. Especially when there range we should have the better hand more often than them with the pair as they have a whole bunch of hands that wont beat a pair on that flop. But i know some of the one's they dont even have pair could be striaght draws with overcards too which starts shrinking my value of being ahead range. That and if they do have a pair out there(or in hand bigger than mine) i'm in real bad shape.

Unguarded,

When you just call in bb what flops are you checkraising the flop that don't contain you hitting your pair with your Ak/AQ type hands? What you do on 10j rag type flop? This i would guess check call? What you do 238 type flops? 44j flop?

The question is when do you c/r flips with good hands that you call pre AK-AJ etc that totally whiff the flop. 27Tr. You are still ahead of their range but sucks to be out of position. Sucks even more when they bet the flop, check the turn, and bink the river.

Darkcheck, it sounds to me like you are very focused on protecting your hand with bets and raises which is obviously very important. But I notice a couple of possible misconceptions:

1) Check-raising bottom pair on the flop shouldn't cause villain to fold 2 broadways on an Axx flop if villain is on the button or sometimes the CO. If a villain is doing this, you can just absolutely wreck them by bluffing total air. But now you are check-raising bottom pair, top pair, and total air. You can probably get away with this for a little while. It's just important to realize that the same argument you are using for check-raising bottom pair basically means that you should be check-raising your entire range.

2) Protection is super important in LHE, but you have to compare the EV of folding out a few outs with the EV of allowing villain to continue to spew by barreling the turn and/or river. Additionally, you can sometimes profitably block bet the river after the turn checks through since any pair, no matter how weak, is often enough. I am wondering if you are thinking "Making villain fold 6 outs is +EV" instead of considering whether check-calling could be even more +EV.



Ninefingershuffle, I almost never check-raise Ax air. When I do, it's for reasons other than anything that has been discussed so far. I think you could never check-raise A hi heads up for the rest of your life and be fine. When I do it, it is against an opponent who never 3bets flops and always waits for the turn. Never 3betting flops heads up in position and always waiting for the turn is overall very strong and difficult to exploit. Tossing in an occasional check-raise with something like an ace hi flush draw or bottom pair top kicker can be a very minor exploit against these players. I especially like it against players who will freeze up with better hands and allow the turn to go check-check. I am never planning to barrel the turn when I do this. I basically just want to 1) have some Ax in my range when the turn comes an ace since an ace turn usually favors villain's range so heavily 2) freeze better hands and 3) piss my opponent off

Very strong players are able to estimate a traditional check-raising range fairly accurately. So I am either trying to confuse strong players or piss off predictable players if I ever check-raise ace hi on the flop. Overall, I prefer to use bottom pair, top kicker instead of ace hi. But I make the occasional exception if I have a wheel draw + backdoor flush draw or the nut flush draw. But even then, it is fairly rare for me.

There was a trend in 2007-2008 to check-raise and barrel with ace hi for value that I personally believe is outdated. I almost completely stopped seeing this from strong players from 2010 onwards.

The problem is that hands like ace hi and bottom pair strongly prefer to pick off spewy turn and river barrels. They also like to block bet the river after the turn checks through in hopes that we have a better hand.



Darkcheck, I usually just check-call on all of those boards. Online, I just call down like we already talked about. Live, I may make some hero folds on the river against predictable, tellbox live players. In the very rare cases that I check-raise, I am trying to piss someone off or make them think I suck. I want to be perceived as an idiot luckbox LAG rather than a savvy LAGTAG whenever possible. I have never been the type to try to randomize my play like a GTO solver, as I find it to be a bit lazy. Randomizing this stuff GTO-style is not worth much money. Paying close attention to my opponents and basing my play on their tendencies/tells is worth a lot of money.

Also, bluff raising rivers is an essential aspect of strong LHE play. If you pay close attention, you will notice that plenty of opponents fold to river raises in situations that don't seem to make much sense. They will swear up and down that they never make hero folds on these rivers, but in reality they do. I feel like it is super important to memorize those spots where you raise the river and get a fold so that you can mimick them later on with air such as ace hi on a scary rundown. Just in general, it is crucial to watch closely for spots where people make big folds. All LHE players have their sob stories about not getting paid with their monsters on the river. But these situations make me happy because I look forward to abusing these players in the future with wild bluffs. It uses to be super common for people to fold to river raises 40+% of the time online. It was a gold mine for quite awhile, but then the stupid GTO bots and solvers had to come along But it is still pretty effective live, especially with live tells being so abundant.

Yeah i hearya on giving them rope to bluff turn and river when we have the ace high bottom pairs being +ev. Just always leaned towards it being a cardinal sin to let my opponents have not one, but two opportunities, on turn and river to suck out when i could just checkraise the flop and be done with it. But i see your point adding in the value of them continuing to bluff can make up for those times. Plus when i am beat i don't lose more bloating the pot with a marginal hand. And they rarely fold those facecards anyway. I always hoped they will but it's much more rare than the norm.

When you actually do flop do you always checkraise when it's top pair? What if we flop an ace and we have ace rag? Check call keep pot small i assume? What about when you flop a set? Sounds like from post above you mentioned ace high flush draws you lean towards checkcalling but sometimes checkraise thoughs. If the flush draw is not ace high does this now become a checkraise to get fold equity with a hand you're not likely to win at showdown? Like all flush draws up to how high would this be a checkraise and when is it a check call? Like king high maybe has showdown value you check call and q high and lower you raise? Or is a flush draw just a check call anyway?

Feel free to ignore the 2nd paragraph if i'm overloading with too many different scenarios/questions for one thread.

nice posts UG!

Darkcheck, I default towards always check-raising with top pair even without a kicker. I also usually check-raise 2nd pair, especially if I have an overcard kicker. I also usually check-raise a flush draw or straight draw that doesn't have any showdown value. An exception might be against an opponent who cbets turns 90+% of the time. In that case, I might wait until the turn with my entire continuing range until they adjust.

Overall, it sounds like you overemphasize protection heads up. Protection is more of a multiway concept. Heads up, the big money plays in order go something like:

1) Bluff your opponent out of the pot (by far the biggest money play since you steal an entire pot obviously)

2) Get value when your opponent is drawing thin or dead (this is usually simple, but players with fancy play syndrome manage to screw this one up)

3) Make your opponent spew with little equity

4) Get thin value (important, but less so than any of the above)

5) Protect your hand by making your opponent fold outs (not a very important concept in heads up pots)

In other words, you seem to be way overemphasizing the least important source of money in heads up pots. Protection is emphasized so strongly in poker books because the authors are usually writing about games where the typical pot is 3-5 handed. Protection skyrockets in value in multiway pots and bluffing can become nearly impossible in some lineups, so the authors are on point.

One final point... your last post sounds like you may have a tendency towards fancy play syndrome. Strong LHE play is overall pretty robotic and uneventful. Basic fundamentals are all you need in like 90% of hands. I would estimate that I make an "expert play" maybe once every 2-3 hours or so in a 9-handed live game. The rest of the time, I am robotically spamming standard plays.

Well my approach is protection and also value. Like when i checkcall with decent hands hu it tilts me so much when they check back the turn feeling like i let them off the hook. The fact you're raising 2nd pair and all flush and straight draws seems similar to how i'm playing. Except i guess the difference is you draw the line at middle pair i guess. I don't always raise bottom pair btw. Not sure what part of my play you thought was fancy play syndrome? I woulda thought checkraise bluffing the river as a possible fancy play going against the non standard. I feel my play is more straight forward tag and maybe not enough "fancy" plays if anything.

Don't you make yourself an easy read when your checkcalling your hand? Where your usually very ace high, king high, bottom pair ranged. Where now your opponent can zero you in and punish you when he has those hands beat but check back and take free cards when he's behind? But i guess being readable is better than being spewy.

It sounds like we play somewhat similar only i'm having more emphasis on protection and value while you on getting them to spew and for you to bluff them out when possible. I see why you see the latter being more important, i just wonder if you will get enough opportunities to do so and also not becoming an easy read to your opponents. Where protection and value you can make sure happens everytime. I'm not saying i'm right your wrong. Just saying it doesn't feel like it's that simple to get what you want by letting them bluff, and possibly could be reversed on you if they're smart. Maybe what i'm saying is alot of decisions in shorthanded limit holdem all seem not so black and white. Like calling down Ace high type things. Feels yucky but prolly right. I remember watching a video by a top pro he had Q10 where flop was A q little after defending bb from middle to late raise and he went... call, call, fold if opponent bet river. Saying his hand is obvious to opponent so if he bets a 3rd time he must be beat as opponent would expect him to call(i beleive opponent was pro also where that makes things different than spewy fish). But when isee things like that i was wondering if i'm making a bad play to keep paying off with ace highs when some pros are folding 2nd pair on river.

Raising with the bottom pair is prolly my biggest leak i think(also have raised Ace high sometimes on safe boards if i just called preflop) bloating a pot where i don't have a big edge, and maybe a negative edge long term where i could get owned. I think it would be right if people actually did fold their face cards when you checkraise those A67 flops but as you said it rarely happens.

If you’re c/r bluffing a lot then they shouldn’t be folding their K high type hands.

I didn't mean to imply they should fold, just that i try to make them fold as the board doesn't look good for them. But most don't and why i agreed it's prolly a mistake to raise them with bottom pair. But isn't it kinda close for them to fold given the range i checkraise with? I mean i sometimes have an ace where they're drawing fairly dead. Then the times i don't i have a pair which still is ahead or a decent draw to outdraw their king.

What's the play after you call the checkraise with king high? Btw i wasn't just referring to king high's trying to get to fold but Q10, QJ,Q9, J10, J9 type hands as well. Knowing how light most people raise from late you could add in Q little suited type hands as well i guess.

Play against the player instead of against what you think the players should do. The strategy against a loose-passive will be different than against loose-aggressive (donkey) and so on. Against a reg it’s not a terrible play, but there is balance you have to consider. You should have some pairs you can call a river bluff after the turn checks through, since you should be defending some k-high and q-high yourself on the flop. Those should be mostly ditched on the river depending on board texture and obviously whether you pair up.

It’s not that it’s a play that always loses money, just makes your range less profitable and complicates your game tree. I’d rather x/r sets/2p/sd and x/c more marginal stuff looking to play poker on later streets.

edit: You need to know what your opponent thinks about you (if anything) before you can justify making a play like this. The problem with x/r bottom pair is that you put yourself in gross situations. If you bet the turn and they raise, you can't know whether or not they're making a play. Now you're putting in all types of money in a situation where you have a terrible hand that can't improve that well. That's why you'd rather make the play with a sd, or even a backdoor flush draw where you can give up on the turn without improvement. So you can't be too bottom heavy in your range against thinking players. Especially since you will want to be taking more showdowns the more capable or crazy the player is.

As far as nits are concerned, just fold your junk when they raise your big blind. Very simple. Nits don't get OOL, so you shouldn't get OOL. Make plays based on your opponents range and balancing your range, and you will see that very rarely does it make sense to raise bottom pair without backup, but we will very often have more than enough equity to call down in wide-range situations, especially against people with completely unbalanced turn x/b ranges.