V1 is middle aged TAG
V2 has just sat down.

Three limpers.
V1 limps on button.
Hero completes SB with Q2
V2 Checks BB

Flop (6 plrs 6 SB) 8103

Hero bets. V2 raises. Folds to V1 who Calls. Hero 3!. V2 Caps. V1 Calls.

Turn (3 plrs 9BB) J

Hero bets. V2 calls. V1 Raises. Hero 3!. V2 folds. V1 Caps.

River (2 plrs 18BB) 2

Hero Checks. V1 Bets. Hero Calls.

why did you donk the turn?

I will assume V1 doesn't have a straight since he would have to either take two to the face on the flop with Q9(he can't have Qh) or call with 79 which I doubt a tag would do on this monotone flop.

He clearly has a flush, the question is are you ahead of his flush range? I don't think you are. Although you can discount a few of the Ace high and K high flushes since the villian probably would have raised preflop with his mid to upper range of these. The problem is looking at this board, its apparent that there just aren't many combos of flushes you are ahead of. Hands like 89,9T,JT, 8T etc aren't possible flush draws given this board. Therefore, there are far more K high and A high flushes in his range.

I will also discount an overplayed set of 33s and assume he would have raised with any other set combo

I would just check/call the river.

I think you played the hand well.

V1's line is LOL.

Do you want to lose 1 bet, 2 bet, or 3 bets on the river? I still think you're ahead a large amount of the time on the river. I don't get V1's line, at all. It's the most hilarious LOLslowplay ever, if he has the nut flush. V2 caps flop, and folds turn? Interesting.

If you got coolered you got coolered, but it's more likely for the cooler to be on the other side.

If I wanted to extract the most value from myself, I would check/raise the river (potentially 3 bets), but if I don't, in order I would bet/call the river (2 bets), check/call the river (1 bet).

You've put a lot of money in this pot, so it doesn't make sense to check/call a blank on the river, to me. If you were contemplating slowing down, it should have been when V1 initially raised the turn. If you weren't willing to slow down there, you should be bet/calling at the minimum, and check/raise/calling at the maximum.

I like all streets.

Gotta lead the flop so that it doesn't get checked through. Gotta 3-bet it, too.

IMO, gotta lead the turn, so as not to give a free card to BB, who could have A or K in this spot. BTN could have QJ/JT/J9 in this spot so you have to 3-bet. BTN's cap is a monster.

C/c river is fine given BTN's turn cap. If he flopped a bigger straight, so be it. Though it's hard to believe he didn't raise a bunch of limpers with a suited Ace. Maybe he has a suited K.

I am willing to be convinced otherwise, but I don't think this advice makes any sense at all.

-McGee

Why did hero 3 bet the turn?

If hero 3 bets the turn, why should he check the river? He has the 3rd nuts in an unraised pot. He said that V1 is a TAG. That should discount all aces, and most kings, unless his read is wrong.

He played the hand hilariously bad if he has the nut flush, and terribly if he has the second nut flush.

With that said, there's no way I'm checking the river, unless I'm planning a check/raise.

Because the turn cap narrowed Villain's turn raising range considerably. We thought we were good when we 3-bet. No so much when we called the cap.

Putting 6 BB in on the big streets with the third nuts seems like bit much. Hell, I'm not thrilled about calling the 4th and 5th BBs since my Q-hi flush suddenly doesn't look so strong. I'm not mucking. But I'm not going crazy, either.

Again, bump, why? Do you seriously think you got monster coolered, in a limped pot by a TAG? Either his read is wrong about the guy, or you're on the good side of any coolers.

nunnehi, if there were no cap, how many bets would you go on the river? To the felt?

I said how many bets I would go. I would normally bet/call in this situation. If I were confident I could get my opponent to bet, and don't mind losing 3 bets, I would check/raise/call.

I think bet/call is better. 3 bets is the max I would ever put in on the river, on this hand, and 2 is the usual, in situations as played on the earlier streets.

I'm assuming a TAG raises Ax PF flop. But Kx, especially a weaker x, may just call. Hell, some TAGs may limp Axs here.

OTF, if he has the NF/2NF, he's got the only two guys in the pot priming the pot. Setting himself up for a nice turn raise. Then he raises and caps the turn.

What is a TAG capping the turn with? Maybe J9 or 97. But again, how many big street bets do you put in against a TAG with the third nuts? I think 5 is plenty and 6 is blech.

nunnehi, I guess I don't understand why it's either three bets on the big streets or six.

I clearly don't know what a middle aged TAG is based on what you're saying there, bump. Your ranges make no sense for the middle aged TAGs I've played against.

I would obviously completely change a lot of my decisions if this guy had been shown to limp Axs and Kxs, especially on the button. But, based on what we're given, nothing makes sense here for the TAG, which leads me more to believe there is an incorrect read.

I just want to make sure you both understand that two different people are capping on the flop and turn, right? V2 capped the flop, and then folded the turn. V1 capped the turn, but I'm sure that you already noticed that.

Aces, I'm not sure what you mean?

I never said it was three bets on the big streets. I'm saying if he were taking the "scared" line (based on V1s very "strong" play on the turn), then it's acceptable to me for him to check/call the river, as long as he didn't 3 bet the turn.

I asked him why he 3 bet the turn, not that he shouldn't have.

I would 3 bet/call the turn, as well, and bet/call the river, in practice. I slow down on the river, based on the reads provided, not the turn.

My only difference with how OP played the hand is the river. I would bet/call or check/raise, not check/call.

Does that make more sense?

In your initial response, you said "If you were contemplating slowing down, it should have been when V1 initially raised the turn."

I understand that you aren't advocating this line, but it would result in three bets going in on the big streets.

Your preferred line, as you know, gets six bets in on the big streets.

What I don't understand is the gap. I fully get that you don't think slowing down is right, but I don't get why you're saying that slowing down "early" is better than slowing down in the middle, when you in fact believe that slowing down even later is best.

Is the label "TAG" (Tight-Aggressive) so specific as to indicate exactly what the player does with Axs on the button after 3 limpers??

Also- What do you think V1's range is after he raises the turn? What about after he caps the turn?

I mean, after the turn raise it's like 79s, Q9s(probably not), and slowplayed flushes or trips (again- probably not trips). And after he caps it's really only A/K high flushes and pure spew. And since you want to continue betting after he caps, you're basically saying that he would never just limp Axs preflop, but he probably would play a 7 high flush or worse as if it were the nuts.

Personally I think we're in trouble when he raises the turn the first time, but I don't really play live.

I am actually not saying slowing down in the early part is better (meaning just calling V1's turn raise), and based on OP's typical posts, it's not even in his realm of thought (correct me if I'm wrong OP).

I guess I'm not thinking of it in an "overall bets" landscape. I think by street, and by action on street, though I am think of my potential river action based on the turn action.

I feel like check/calling the river is just slamming on the brakes, when I really feel there should be at least two bets going in on this river (provided villain actually raises your bet). Up to this point, hero has played his hand as if it's the nuts (correctly, I believe), and just all of a sudden, after the cap, thinking that he is beat is weird to me, especially since the river is a blank.

Remember, most of the reason I am having a hard time believing I'm beat is based on the read that villain is a TAG. Against a loose passive, I think the check/call on the river is totally fine, but against a TAG, I think it's wrong, since it's a limped pot. If I am raised on the river blank, I have no choice but to believe there is at least a chance that I am beat, and will slam the brakes on then, regardless of read.

I'm advocating putting in 6 or 7 bets on the big streets (4 on the turn, 2 or 3 on the river), just so that I am especially clear (hopefully).

I generally wouldn't consider someone who limps Axs and Kxs to be a TAG, especially if they're "middle aged". The hands you mention make total sense for most players. However, I am still thinking his read is wrong about the TAG, but OP will have to enlighten us.

because he wanted to get 3 bets in with the best hand.

because he wanted to get 4 big bets in on the big bet streets

he doesnt suffer from FPS like so many here.

This is our biggest difference on this hand so far, but also what I had the biggest question about.

The cap on turn, especially after another player had capped flop, narrowed his hand to NF or 2NF to me.

I wasn't folding this massive pot, but for most live players this turn cap is very very strong. I think. So I C/C river.

Up until this point his play could be characterized as TAG. He wasn't playing a lot of hands, but would raise in late position when the table was playing tight, or with good equity hogs in multiway pots. Look, its live 8/16 so he wasn't expert TAG, but he played pretty well and Tagish compared to most live 8/16 players.

I think b/calling this river is bad. If you get raised on this river you are beat. If you really think your ahead then CR/call is the best line.

nunnehi, I guess my point is that at some point, hero has to slow down after being the aggressor. For you, that spot is after betting the river and getting raised. For hero, it's after being four-bet on the turn. Whichever camp you fall in probably doesn't matter much. But there's nothing inherently inconsistent with three-betting the turn and then checking the river after being four-bet here. The way I interpret your posts, you seem to think there is, and it just doesn't make sense to me.

crueleye, what kinds of hands had you seen him limp with? Had he limped very often, or was it almost always a raise?

In regards to mongi, you're entitled to your opinion, but IF I am checking in this situation, I am always check/raise/calling this river. I also do not for a second think I am 100 percent beat if I am raised. I personally think, in game flow, bet/calling is better than check/raise/calling the river, and that's why I'm doing it. Again, that's just me.

Aces, I guess it's because there's no reason to think that hero should fall into the trap that he's behind on the turn, based on the TAG read (other reads, it's a TOTALLY different situation).

If I think I am ahead on the turn, even when capped, I see no reason to stop betting. Being raised on the river, after all the cards are out, is another story. If I keep betting the river, I stop when raised. That's my thought process, regardless of whether it makes sense to you.