6-handed.

A good reg posts the kill in MP and checks his option when it's folded to him. A good TAG raises next to act in CO, BB calls and the reg defends his kill with 95.

Is this ok??

I feel dumb for asking because this seems like a snap fold to me but the reg is a good player from what I've seen, so that's why I'm confused. He plays the right way: almost always comes in raising first to act (only seen him open limp once and it shocked the hell out of me), almost never cold calls raises (3b or fold), raises his BN often, etc, etc.

If this is an ok defend for 5:1 and closing the action, then what hands would we fold? Doesn't seem like there's much difference between 95o and 72o to me. Thoughts?

I defend the kill liberally and loosen my opening standards. Bad players play even worse in kill pots by not adjusting appropriately. I would call here as well.

Put the CO and BB on ranges and plug all three players into ppt and see what equity poster has. Show all your work here.

I don't see any reason to play 95o OOP against a good TAG. Your equity may not be horrible since the TAG should have a wide range here, however, lack of playability will reduce your chance of actualizing this equity.. You will have to post a kill again if you lose which lessens your immediate odds.

For CO I'd estimate 77+, A8s+, ATo+, 87s+ and any two paint

For BB: 22+, any suited Q, K and A, 54s+, J8s+, T8s+, A5o+, and any two paint. And we'll remove KK, AA

That gives the CO 47% equity, BB 31% and Kill 19%.

So yes, in terms of raw equity the kill has the right odds to call. But these are all in PF percentages which don't take into account post flop playability. With 95o what kind of flop are we hoping for?

I feel like if I were the kill with 95o and flopped a pair, I'd be in defensive call down mode and praying I don't have to pay off three streets. Some might xr and advocate becoming the aggressor but that risks value owning ourselves. It really sucks to be oop with a mediocre hand vs a TAG PFR which is why I feel like this is a fold but I'm open to hearing reasons why this is a call.

If we call with 95o, are there any hands we fold? Curious to know what should be the bottom of our calling range here.

This might be a bit conservative for CO. With the dead money in the pot and the perceived weakness of the check, CO should be pretty aggressive here.

Incidentally, as the kill poster, I'm raising pretty much ATC if it's folded to me in MP. If I'm CO, I'm raising a TON of hands if I read the poster's check as weak and I think the blinds are even the slightest bit tight.

Any pair is a good start. Preferably one with at most one paint card.

What's wrong with that?

It does. You shouldn't just blindly check-raise a pair against any opponent. You should think about who you're against and how that player plays.

Just because it sucks, it doesn't mean it's not profitable.

That being said, I'm not sure that 95o here is profitable. It might be close because of the dead money in the pot.

If you win, you have to post the kill again.

You say that as if that's a bad thing. The size of the pot that I won on the previous hand is larger than the size of the kill. So even if I post the kill and just fold, I'd still have more money than I would have if I hadn't won.

Edit: This is a little too casual. Yes, it does take a bite out of your profits when you win. I don't think it's so significant that I would dramatically change my strategy just on that basis. I would, however, adjust my strategy based on how my opponents handle the kill pot.

You should subtract a bet out of the pot and play accordingly. So if you are getting five to one, given you have to post, treat it as four to one.

This is a *terrible* idea. You would grossly over-penalize yourself and make really bad folds if you did that. Do you automatically lose your entire big blind every single time you post it? Of course not!

The value of the kill varies with your position. (If I could take the kill every time I was on the button, I would. There are lots of inherent advantages to it.) Whether to penalize or reward yourself will depend on whether you think it's +EV or -EV to have the kill in that particular position (relative to not having the kill button).

This is basically the bottom for me. I would fold 84o, call 65o, 75o, 85o.

The kill and the B.B. are very different. If you win a hand in the B.B. you don’t have to put more dead money in the pot the next hand. If you win the hand on a kill, you are forced to take money out of your pocket and throw it in the middle the next hand. That said, you are right, it is never a full loss of whatever the kill is because there is some chance you win the next hand.

Very borderline, at best kill can expect something like 22% equity, the player defending the kill should probably fold unless he thinks he has better post-flop skills

Just off top of my head the fact that you can make a str8 with 95o has to make some difference.

Why fold 84o and call with 95o? doesn't seem like much difference?

Well, you have to draw the line somewhere. I would personally play a bit tighter here though.

What exactly is MP in a six handed game? I feel like we should be raising almost any two cards here...

Presumably:

1 - SB
2 - BB
3 - UTG
4 - MP
5 - CO
6 - B

You know the players but I think you should reconsider these ranges. They're so likely too conservative. HJ (your MP) could justify raising 80% here but let's say its just 66%. That means he has a bottom-third hand. CO can justify raising almost any two against that. BB should have incentive to raise waaaaaay more than just AA,KK, like maybe top 40% against CO and bottom third HJ. But doesn't. And now HJ is being offered 5:1 against a near random hand and a super weak BB range. Seems like a play to me. I stoved what I think the ranges should be and got 95o having 25% equity. That's way too big an overlay to fold especially when not first to act post.

I would raise the kill here if it checked to me. ����*♂️

Seems to be consensus that if checked to you should be raising most if not all of ur range here, does that still apply if you have a limper?

Guess you have to defend wide in the blinds in a kill pot if everyone is snap raising their kill if limped to? At least at 20/40?

Even if your opponent is raising ATC, your defense proposition isn't as strong as your opponent's attack proposition.

Let's say that you're playing 20/40 with a 40/80 kill. SB posts 10, BB posts 20, kill posts 40.

When it gets folded to the kill, he's betting 40 to win 70 immediately with postflop position if he gets called.

When BB defends, he's calling 60 in a pot that is 110 out of position. Compare this with a standard 40/80 big blind defense where you're calling 40 to win 20 SB +40 BB + 80 Raiser = 140. Playing for 60:110 is much worse than playing 40:140.

BB is also out of position, has a larger absolute investment, a worse preflop to postflop bet size ratio than normal (the preflop call is larger than flop bet size), and can never win the pot immediately. Those are significant negative factors that you have to contend with.

So it's not immediately obvious to me that defending very widely is the right play, even if your opponent is raising a ton of hands. I'd much rather be behind the kill and 3-betting widely than defending from BB widely.

+1

At some point, you're getting a huge discount on the raise in a bloated pot. The SB and BB aren't getting a great price to defend. Let's play some shorthanded poker. Raise or fold. Since we put in half the raise already...

If this is a 20/40 full kill game then the killer put in 40 and raised to 80. The BB only has 20 in the pot. Just because the killer has suspect values, the BB is getting a much worse price than normal because he's only put in half a normal 40/80 blind.
I'm with Aaron and others, the ranges given in this hand seem pretty nitty. Shorthanded game with in a bloated kill pot. I'd never be in this spot as the killer because I'd pretty much pretend to look and then shove in more chips.
If 95o and 72o are the same hand to you, the 6 handed game should be really juicy before you sit in it. You're going to run into a bunch of wide range spots in this game, especially with the kill. If you fold way too much (especially having put in a $40 kill blind), you're going to have trouble winning. Those of us who played a lot of 6m poker enjoyed playing against opponents who under-defended blinds and who weren't showdown bound enough.