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Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

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Old 08-31-2018, 03:46 PM   #26
DalTXColtsFan
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

IMHO the money coming back into the table is not what offsets the rake - it's the relative skill level. Also, I don't necessarily think we have to beat the game for >17BB/100 in SoJ's example because we're going to win, on average, far fewer that 1/9 of the pots.

To look at it a different way, suppose that out of a 100-hand sample we play 20 hands (possibly including the blinds). Let's say we win 8 and lose 12. To simplify the math, let's say the 8 pots we won were all between $40 and $48 so the rake was $4 plus $1BBJ and $1 tip, so the pots were between 10 and 12BB with an average rake of 3. Let's say hero contributed 3.5BB to those pots. Let's say we lost an average of 2BB per hand on the 12 hands we lost.

In that case the pots totalled between 80 and 96BB, we contributed 28BB of that, we had 24BB taken away by rake and 24BB taken away in hands we played and lost. That's a net profit of 4BB-20BB in 100 hands. Not too shabby.

Obviously I pulled these numbers out of my ass, but I don't think they're too far off from reality. At a table where 5 people put in 2 bets pre (i.e. 4 callers, a raiser, all limpers call), 3 people put in a small bet on the flop, 2 people put in a big bet on the turn and 2 people put a big bet into the pot on the river (all of those "people counts" include hero), that's 10.5BB in the pot.
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Old 08-31-2018, 04:55 PM   #27
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

I've played a bit of 3-6 at Talking Stick when my uncle visits and it plays very similar to 4-8 at which I've got a considerable number of hours and it's clear that the pots are much smaller than at 8-16. Far fewer raises pf and less multi-way. I don't think that there's enough in the average pot to beat the rake for anything close to vacation money.

---------------

I'll toss this in here for the lulz: I've told him over and over 'play big cards, just big cards' in an attempt to give him some chance of winning but, no, J-2o shows up in his UTG limp range every year.
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Old 09-01-2018, 01:52 AM   #28
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

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Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
IMHO the money coming back into the table is not what offsets the rake - it's the relative skill level. Also, I don't necessarily think we have to beat the game for >17BB/100 in SoJ's example because we're going to win, on average, far fewer that 1/9 of the pots.

To look at it a different way, suppose that out of a 100-hand sample we play 20 hands (possibly including the blinds). Let's say we win 8 and lose 12. To simplify the math, let's say the 8 pots we won were all between $40 and $48 so the rake was $4 plus $1BBJ and $1 tip, so the pots were between 10 and 12BB with an average rake of 3. Let's say hero contributed 3.5BB to those pots. Let's say we lost an average of 2BB per hand on the 12 hands we lost.

In that case the pots totalled between 80 and 96BB, we contributed 28BB of that, we had 24BB taken away by rake and 24BB taken away in hands we played and lost. That's a net profit of 4BB-20BB in 100 hands. Not too shabby.

Obviously I pulled these numbers out of my ass, but I don't think they're too far off from reality. At a table where 5 people put in 2 bets pre (i.e. 4 callers, a raiser, all limpers call), 3 people put in a small bet on the flop, 2 people put in a big bet on the turn and 2 people put a big bet into the pot on the river (all of those "people counts" include hero), that's 10.5BB in the pot.
You will win at every stake with just about any kind of rake structure if you win 40% of the hands you play.

Even AA doesn't have that kind of equity in a pot that goes off 4+ ways.

Assuming an average pot of $45 with a generous 4+1 rake w/ $1 tip, 3.5 BB invested when winning, 2 BB invested when losing:

45 - 6 = 39 per pot won, - 14 invested = 25 profit
25 x 8 = 200 profit

20% equity: -8 when losing x 32 = -256 = -$56 overall

25% equity: -8 when losing x 24 = -192 = +$8 overall

Last edited by SetofJacks; 09-01-2018 at 02:13 AM.
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Old 09-01-2018, 11:13 AM   #29
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

I'd venture to say that if you can beat 4/8 for any non-negligible amount of time, that you really should be seeking out a stake into 20/40.
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Old 09-01-2018, 02:52 PM   #30
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

Not everyone can be so risk unaversed to jump right to medium stakes. In fact, playing on a stake likely adds to risk aversion for many.
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Old 09-01-2018, 03:56 PM   #31
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

it's not like a person capable of beating a 4/8 game just came out of nowhere. Long time in the making.
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Old 09-02-2018, 10:22 AM   #32
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

Sure but there’s a big difference between having 40 bucks on the 1/2 online game and having 400 bucks on the live game. The difference is psychological and many would likely perform better in the former due to risk aversion.
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Old 09-02-2018, 11:11 AM   #33
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

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I'd venture to say that if you can beat 4/8 for any non-negligible amount of time, that you really should be working on your blind defense strategy and heads-up postflop skills, and then once you have those down to a science and are impervious to tilt, seeking out a stake into a 20/40 game that nonetheless has at least 2 or 3 fish in it.
FYP
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Old 09-02-2018, 11:16 AM   #34
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

There's plenty of low to zero risk strategy games one can excel at. It's important to realize poker is a negative sum game. If your goal is to just play and not lose a ton, that's fine, but investing any non-negligible amount of time on grinding to attain a positive win rate at 4/8 is foolish.

Plus the risk aversion argument is nonsensical. If a dude hands you $20k to play 20/40 on a payback schedule, you're literally incurring no risk. Except now you can beat the rake.


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Old 09-02-2018, 12:26 PM   #35
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

Except there’s the unique pressure that comes when you’re playing with someone else’s money. The thoughts of failure can creep in during a hand, which is mental energy and time spent that could be used to read the situation better if one has a clear mind.
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Old 09-02-2018, 10:33 PM   #36
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

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FYP
You seem to think 20/40 is a tough game filled with professionals. I assure you, it is not.
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Old 09-02-2018, 10:46 PM   #37
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

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You seem to think 20/40 is a tough game filled with professionals. I assure you, it is not.
While true, that doesn't mean it takes the same skills as playing 4/8.
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Old 09-02-2018, 11:19 PM   #38
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

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While true, that doesn't mean it takes the same skills as playing 4/8.
Well the line of "a 20/40 game that has at least 2 or 3 fish in it" is nonsensical, as I'd wager that nearly ever 20/40 game in the country has 6-9 fish in it most of the time.
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Old 09-03-2018, 03:50 AM   #39
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

Depends on the definition. If take isn't too high, which it usually isn't in a 20/40 game, there will be a few winners, and I'd never call someone with +EV in a game to be a fish.

But as the old saying implies, if the 9th best player in the world only likes to play with the 8 guys better than him, he is a fish.
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Old 09-04-2018, 01:36 PM   #40
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

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Originally Posted by SetofJacks View Post
Well the line of "a 20/40 game that has at least 2 or 3 fish in it" is nonsensical, as I'd wager that nearly ever 20/40 game in the country has 6-9 fish in it most of the time.
I would take that wager. It is true for CP, but not for the B or most of the LA rooms most of the time. I also just tried east coast 20 and it was soft but not 6-9 fish soft.

Cliffs - CP softest 20 game in the country.
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Old 09-24-2018, 11:59 PM   #41
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

Sorry I haven't come back to this thread for a bit. I hurt my knee at work and have been off for a bit. Haven't been able to play poker either. As far as talk of moving up stakes. I was looking at this as I built a bankroll up. The biggest issue is that it will mean switching to no limit. 3/6 and 4/8 are pretty much the only options for LHE in this area. On rare occasions you might be 5/10 go off. To move up stakes you have to move to nl. When I am able to play again I was going to hit 3/6 some more and then try 4/8. Truthfully I expect these games to be virtually identical as 4/8 is the lowest game offered in the one city, while at the other casinos 3/6 is the limit option. Only Wheeling regularly has 2/4. I figure to build up a cushion and then take a shot at the 1/2nl game in Wheeling as it has the smallest buy-in. Then go from there.
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Old 09-25-2018, 12:38 AM   #42
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

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Sorry I haven't come back to this thread for a bit. I hurt my knee at work and have been off for a bit. Haven't been able to play poker either.
I hope your recovery is going smoothly.

Quote:
As far as talk of moving up stakes. I was looking at this as I built a bankroll up. The biggest issue is that it will mean switching to no limit. 3/6 and 4/8 are pretty much the only options for LHE in this area. On rare occasions you might be 5/10 go off. To move up stakes you have to move to nl. When I am able to play again I was going to hit 3/6 some more and then try 4/8. Truthfully I expect these games to be virtually identical as 4/8 is the lowest game offered in the one city, while at the other casinos 3/6 is the limit option. Only Wheeling regularly has 2/4. I figure to build up a cushion and then take a shot at the 1/2nl game in Wheeling as it has the smallest buy-in. Then go from there.
What bankroll expectations have you set for yourself? If you're looking to get into NL, you might be better off thinking more in terms of "taking shots" than "managing your bankroll." It will probably take you a long, long time to "build up a cushion" at 4/8 limit if you're ultimately thinking of playing NL.
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Old 09-25-2018, 10:34 AM   #43
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

For contrast between NL and LHE BR building, I'd suggest the Clueless N00b reaches 1000 hours threads by gobbledygeek


Here's the later one, on NL.
The first one on small stakes LHE.


His advice was summed up here
Quote:
If you play small stakes live limit (like, anything up to and including ~4/8) for partly/mostly $$$ earning potential, stop. Like, stop right now. RIGHT NOW! STOP! And come to the dark side.

Like, seriously. I'm not even joking.

He's got a ton of hours in a game by modern standards that has low rake
Quote:
B&M 2/4
10 players (usually, unless the table plays shorthanded for a bit)
$3 maximum rake
$1 bad beat jackpot drop
$1 tip (usually)

His summary
Quote:
- so, yeah, for those wondering if there’s more money to be made at a small stakes Limit game (say 2/4 thru 4/8) versus a small stakes NL game (say upwards of 1/3 NL), my results suggest that this isn’t even close
- the obvious conclusion is that if you are playing small stakes Limit for mostly money earning potential, then stop immediately (like right now!) and start playing small stakes NL instead

If your end goal is to play NL, making money in high rake 2/4 and 3/6 limit is probably the slow way to go. If you enjoy LHE and want to play that, you probably can't make money but you'll get to enjoy playing the game. imo
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Old 09-25-2018, 09:57 PM   #44
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

If you're considering a move from LHE to NL, one thing you might consider is shortstacking. The ONLY disadvantage is it's so boring you'll want to gouge out your eyeballs with a fork. The advantages are nearly limitless: Since you won't be playing many hands you can watch a lot of hands and get a really good feel for what it's like to play in the game. You can practice handreading, guessing what they have and if you're lucky enough to see a showdown finding out whether or not you were right. Depending on the minimum buyin, you can take multiple bullets with you to the casino more easily.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/3...05/?highlight=
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Old 09-26-2018, 04:18 PM   #45
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

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Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
Depends on the definition. If take isn't too high, which it usually isn't in a 20/40 game, there will be a few winners, and I'd never call someone with +EV in a game to be a fish.

But as the old saying implies, if the 9th best player in the world only likes to play with the 8 guys better than him, he is a fish.

Always thought the term fish applied to someone with literally had no clue on how to play the game..
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Old 09-26-2018, 04:21 PM   #46
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

4/8 is EASILY beatable! I've been doing it! but I've said this like a 100 times lol.
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Old 09-26-2018, 11:05 PM   #47
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

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Always thought the term fish applied to someone with literally had no clue on how to play the game..
You are correct in that many people consider fish to consist solely of people who are too drunk to stand up or people who don't know if a flush beats a straight.

As you get better, your definition of "fish" will expand beyond the obvious newbies. People who play 40% of their hands will consider people who play 60% of their hands fish.

Most people will think of a bad player as "the" fish at the table. The best player will consider everyone else to be fish.

Try not to be a fish too often. But if you're never a fish, you're probably not trying hard enough to improve and are stunting your growth as a player.
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