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Old 08-26-2018, 08:21 PM   #1
greyhawke54
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Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

Just wanted to ask what's new what's the same? Background below. Thanks

I used to play online a lot at microstakes on Poker stars and full tilt before black Friday. I had played live here and there. I have finally gotten the time and money to go out and play again. I have recently played 2/4 at Wheeling Island and 3/6 at the Meadows and mountaineer. I play on Saturday mainly. Competition is mostly old folks passing money back and forth. The promotions seem to be a huge part of the game. I have seen many games break almost immediately after the promotion ends or when the bad beat jackpot is high and gets hit. Is the pretty much normal now? I also read here how these games are unbeatable due to the rake. What exactly are they meaning? As far as doing it for a living? I am playing for fun trying to make extra money for vacation or to take the wife out. Nothing life changing. I have done ok the last few sessions, and had a couple not as good. Pretty much standard stuff. Rereading small stakes hold em as a refresher. Anything else anyone would recommend?
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Old 08-26-2018, 09:22 PM   #2
Howard Beale
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

I'll try cliffs on the few replies that you might get:

2-4 is entirely unbeatable bec of the rake. You might make a few dollars at 3-6 but prob not bec of the rake. 'Bec of the rake' means that the house has to have a reason to stay open and just bec those stakes are low the establishment still has the same expenses to run the game/make a profit and there just isn't enough money left over after taking their share for even the best players to make vacation money. You might make enough to take the wife out for a cheeseburger if she doesn't order the super-size.

I sincerely apologize for that last part. I succumbed after a full minute's struggle not to include it.
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Old 08-26-2018, 10:12 PM   #3
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

No worries. I am old enough that if I can't handle a smart ass remark in a forum in an otherwise reasonable post. Then I should just quit the internet.

Your response is kinda what I thought. I guess I was asking more because my limited experience runs very counter to that. I have played about 5 sessions. I started with 85 bucks at 2/4. First night I was really rusty. Ended up 9 bucks to the good. I hadn't played in years. I really missed it thought about my play recognized several holes and leaks. Went out the next Saturday sat 2/4 at Wheeling for a couple hours bought in for 40 cashed out 110. Decided to go up to the Meadows and try 3/6. Bought in 60 cashed out 160 after about 3 or 4 hours. I was pretty happy. I knew that was a pretty good run. Next weekend I played 3/6 at the Meadows. Ran pretty rough. Just didn't see a lot of good hands ones I did get didn't do great. A had 1 hand that I made aces full of tens which was good enough to get me 100 bucks from a promotion. I ended up, up 20 bucks. I had played about 4-5 hours just not really going anywhere so I called it a night and went home. Next week ran better buy in 60 cashed out 136. Game broke because the bad beat hit. Played 3 hours. Next week decided to try Mountaineer 3/6. Did very well played about 4 hours bought in for 60 cashed out 285. 50 of it was from a promo. 175 ahead on the table. Next Saturday (yesterday). Not as well. Up 45 total. Bought in for 60 cashed out for 105. 75 from promo. On the days a ran cold the promos really saved my ass. This last Saturday I didn't get a lot of good hands. I got aces cracked, I won some pots but not many. Table was more passive and less active this time. Pots were smaller. Instead of 6 or 7 way action it was 3-4 way more. I had a lot of hands that had potential but never went anywhere. Not unusual or anything. Not trying to brag or whine just trying to convey info. Most all the games seem to be older retirees that are just passing money back and forth. No obvious big winners. Saw lot of the buy in multiple times. Dribble it away. Win a pot dribble some more. Reload occasionally. The sessions I did well in I didn't seem like I was on fire or anything. I obviously ran good but not unusually so. I had tightened up my game a good bit. Would win decent pots and not piss it away chasing garbage.
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Old 08-26-2018, 10:13 PM   #4
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

Wow that was long. Sorry.
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Old 08-26-2018, 10:15 PM   #5
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

Also, I know. Really really small sample size.
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Old 08-26-2018, 10:39 PM   #6
Howard Beale
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

Yeah, but right now you've won enough for a fancy steakhouse dinner which is what I think you ought to do asap. Showing the wife something tangible from your poker play is never a bad thing.
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Old 08-26-2018, 10:46 PM   #7
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

I'm not sure where you play, but let's assume $4 on average is taken for the rake, and $2 is dropped for promos.

That's $6 per hand, which means $600 per hundred hands - $67 per player for every hundred hands played at the table. If you can beat an unraked 2/4 game for 17 BB/100 hands, then you can beat the rake.

I think I did the math right, someone correct me if I messed something up.
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Old 08-27-2018, 12:10 AM   #8
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

You're kind of in between worlds. If you want to just play for fun, then 2/4 or 3/6 can be enough entertainment for just idling around and hoping to win a jackpot or something.

But if you want to make some extra money for vacation or for a night out, you may want to find a different game. Are you comfortable playing a little higher (assuming that you can even find a bigger game)?

If not, then as much as I like to play limit hold'em (and see others play it), I'd suggest that you're going to make more money playing no limit, and it's not that much harder at the lowest levels. The games will likely be more consistently run with a wider player pool. Playing against a room full of old nits is just a really tough way to grind something like out $0.10 an hour.

Also, if you've been out of it for a while, it's not an unreasonable time to make the jump.
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Old 08-27-2018, 08:58 AM   #9
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

I agree with Howard. I also think that if you’re interested in getting better and maybe taking a weekend vacation with winnings, the first step is grinding online at stakes much cheaper than unbeatable live low limit games.

Then when you can hold your own in an online .50/1 game you could probably do well at 6/12 live to 10/20. The reason is that the guys making a living off of poker play stakes that have the highest winrate $/hour. They’re not thinking about 8/16. They’re wondering where the Thursday night 40/80 crowd is while they slum it in 20/40.

Oh and remember back when you could bet bet checkback river and win often with stuff like AK or AQ vs lots of players? I would think you could still do that live, but you’re gonna face many more check raises online.

No more free showdown raises except vs very predictable players that have (the nuts) as their turn 3betting range and (lots of medium strength hands, many of which probably shouldn’t be betting the turn) as their betting ranges.

Cold calling in the small blind first in after a late position raise isn’t necessarily the sign of a bad player anymore.

Flop 100% c bet is now only standard on certain types of flops.

Checking ranges have evolved significantly.

Thinking on a more general level:

It’s still just a mind game that we play with our hands.

If you prefer the live game, I suggest saving 500 just for poker. Then depending on how far you are from the game bring 200-300, leaving at least 200 at home in reserve. Play 4/8 or 6/12.
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Old 08-27-2018, 01:55 PM   #10
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

You're a losing poker player. By a lot. You're hourly is negative in that 2/4. Probably losing like $15-30+ an hour. If you want to take your wife out, save the money from poker and do it.

FWIW I dont think I'd be a winning player in that 2/4 game either.
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Old 08-27-2018, 01:55 PM   #11
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

and small stakes limit holdem is ok for a beginner but it's not good advice in 2018
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Old 08-27-2018, 04:16 PM   #12
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

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Originally Posted by SetofJacks View Post
I'm not sure where you play, but let's assume $4 on average is taken for the rake, and $2 is dropped for promos.

That's $6 per hand, which means $600 per hundred hands - $67 per player for every hundred hands played at the table. If you can beat an unraked 2/4 game for 17 BB/100 hands, then you can beat the rake.

I think I did the math right, someone correct me if I messed something up.
I don't disagree with you math. I am questioning the analysis a bit. Yes the table as a whole loses that money, however you as a player does not. As a better player you are not involved in as many hands. You are folding a lot. So most of the time you are not really paying the rake. I am thinking of the rake as basically just another player at the table that wins and average of $6 per hand. At 30 hands an hour they would be taking off $180 per hour. Some of that is given back in promos. But lets leave that alone for now. You also constantly have new people or new money coming into the game. When you win a large pot for the most part you are locking that money up in your stack. Your are only putting it out there when it has a pretty good chance of coming back to you, along with other players money. Though each hand you play, you do contribute to the rake. However overall you are not paying nearly as much of it as the bad players at your table. They would be contributing the bulk of the money to that. I am also basing some of this on my observations during my recent play. In my last session I bought in for $60 dollars. I never reloaded, I was pretty happy with my play. I was not running the best, not seeing a lot of good hands, the hands I did get that were worth playing did not improve. I did manage to get I high hand that held up for the hour to get $75 in promo money. That I didn't spend. I played for about 4 hours treading water mainly. Winning a pot here or there, having it dribble out on hands that were worth playing that didn't hit and I had to fold.


As far as my profitability. I was looking at what I bought in for and what I cashed out. So far I have started with $85 and have ground it up to $605. I keep my poker bankroll completely separate from my regular money. I am a bit of a bankroll management nit. I would actually have about 70 more in it, but I took some out because I needed some cash and just didn't replace it. I appreciate any thoughts on my reasoning and analysis.
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Old 08-27-2018, 04:22 PM   #13
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

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and small stakes limit holdem is ok for a beginner but it's not good advice in 2018
Yeah at these tables I am finding that as well. This is def a different kind of poker that what he is describing. I had read it years ago. I was breaking it out mainly as a refresher, to get myself thinking and analyzing my play better. Kind of to put me in the right mindset and get me thinking more about my game and the players I am facing.
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Old 08-27-2018, 04:51 PM   #14
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

Hey OP, this is a *little* off topic but I'd like to know: In each of the games you played,
- about how many people saw each flop, turn, river and showdown?
- How often did the other players at the table raise on each street?
- How often do YOU raise on each street?
- What is your LHE education background, i.e. have you been coached, read books, analyzed hands in a database et al?
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Old 08-27-2018, 07:30 PM   #15
greyhawke54
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

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Hey OP, this is a *little* off topic but I'd like to know: In each of the games you played,
- about how many people saw each flop, turn, river and showdown?
- How often did the other players at the table raise on each street?
- How often do YOU raise on each street?
- What is your LHE education background, i.e. have you been coached, read books, analyzed hands in a database et al?
In the games that I did better 6-8 lot of family pots. I raised some, mainly big pairs ect. sometimes to try to thin the field. Didn't work very well. There were a couple that would raise every now and again, but very seldom, even with things like aces. I saw people limp with aces, kings and queens multiple times. Lot of the times I did raise it was met with dirty looks ect. Got called table bully couple times, half jokingly. I was able to get a few check raises in here and there, that also earns some dirty looks. Most of the time I was the lead bettor, no matter my position. I did tend to move towards limping more with things like ace king and ace queen. I mixed it up, would raise sometimes, others would not. Almost all the players at the table were older retired folks male and female. They were not even close to nitty. Lot of them played nearly every hand. Some just hemorrhaged money and did not really seem to even be bothered by it. They seemed to be there for the promos. That was the biggest concern was seen those flops to try and make a high hand for the board for a chance at the promo.

As far as my experience, very amateur. Read super system 1 and 2, caro's book of tells, Small stakes limit hold em, 7 CSFAP, Hi low split poker, Theory of poker, sklansky on poker. Some others, I think Harrington's tournament poker. I played in some home games and some back room games when poker was everywhere, bar tournies, and cash games that followed. PokerStars and Full Tilt, I was a regular in the .25/.50 Horse, stud, and Stud 8 games. Assorted online tournaments. I was a winning player online. Nothing huge, it was mainly just for fun. I was also a winning player live. How good am I. I think I am a decent player, but not great. Right now this whole thing is just an experiment. I love to play poker, I had not been able to in a while, had the chance to play so I took it and realized just how much I missed it. Since that first weekend, I have went every weekend since. I really going to try hard to go this weekend as it is labor day. Several of the casinos have labor day promos, and I figured there would be and increase due to holiday traffic. So far the experiment is going pretty well, but the sample size is very, very, small. I was looking to grind up a bit to have a cushion and maybe give the no limit games a go as well. Limit poker suits my style of play better, but I can play both.
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Old 08-27-2018, 07:33 PM   #16
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

I used to post some in the 7 card stud forum here back when online was an easier option. From what the one poster said, maybe I should look into that again. I wasn't sure that as a US player I had a lot of options.
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Old 08-28-2018, 09:00 AM   #17
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

6 to 8 seeing EVERY pot and LOTS of family pots???? Man you are lucky, where I play it's more like 3 to 5.

You should be able to make money in that game in the long run, even with the terrible rake. I noticed "Small Stakes Limit Hold'Em" in your book list - is that the Sklansky/Malmuth/Miller book? If so, you need to read that book from cover to cover once a month for a year. Here are some other suggestions:

1. After every session you play, pick 1 or 2 hands where there was a spot where you weren't sure what the correct decision was and post the hand.
2. You need to be raising AKo, AQo, KQs and often even ATs essentially every time you're dealt them with very very few exceptions. To see why, download pokerstove if you haven't already. AKo against 5 random hands, for example, gives you a 28% chance of sextupling up. Do you want to sextuple $2 28 times out of a 100, or do you want to sextuple $4 28 times out of 100? When you have an equity advantage you need to shove it down their throats, especially when there's 6 to 8 people in the pot - get them putting as much money as possible into the pot without the best hand.
3. Be prepared for downswings. I'll give you an extreme example from my game - 4 limpers, I'm on the button with AKs and I raise, both blinds and all limpers call. I flop a K on a dry board. Checks around to me, I bet, 4 callers. Turn puts a twoflush on the board. Checks around to me, I bet, 3 callers. River puts 3rd to a flush on the board. Checks around to me, I bet, get checkraised and call. Villain flips over something sick like 72s for a flush. I'm out 4 big bets. I usually buy in for 25 big bets in a $4/$8 game, so if I get sucked out on 6 times, that plus losing a few hands from the blinds is byebye buyin. But look at it from the other side: If my AKs holds up in a pot like that (and it WILL hold up about 3 times in 10) the pot could end up with 10 or 12 big bets in it. I win two or three pots and I double my buyin. Those are simplified examples but I think you see my point - the house taking 3 small bets out of the 8 to 12 big bet pots I win aren't going to cripple me in the long run. The key is the other villains at the table have to be willing to put enough money in the pot with hopeless hands to cover it.
4. Just have fun playing a game. If it isn't fun it isn't worth the money.

Hope this helps
DTXCF
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Old 08-28-2018, 11:16 AM   #18
Aaron W.
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

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2. You need to be raising AKo, AQo, KQs and often even ATs essentially every time you're dealt them with very very few exceptions. To see why, download pokerstove if you haven't already. AKo against 5 random hands, for example, gives you a 28% chance of sextupling up. Do you want to sextuple $2 28 times out of a 100, or do you want to sextuple $4 28 times out of 100? When you have an equity advantage you need to shove it down their throats, especially when there's 6 to 8 people in the pot - get them putting as much money as possible into the pot without the best hand.
Is PokerStove being actively maintained and updated? I thought that thing went dormant years ago.
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Old 08-29-2018, 12:01 AM   #19
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

With your background, you are very probably the best player in those games. I think you could even do better than break-even. By how much depends on the player and the rake. You may not make enough for a vacation, but just enjoy the game and hope to go home with more than you arrived with. That's enough of a goal for the low limit games.

The players you are playing against sound like they are generally loose-passive. Loose passives will make lots of mistakes. By playing tighter than your opponents, you are playing good cards against their mediocre cards, which should win you some nice pots. A big mistake they will make will be not raising good hands preflop, which will result in the pots they win being much smaller than they should be. You MUST raise AK, AQ, AJ, AT, and KQ - that is how you punish players who play bad starting cards. Note that you do not have to bet the flop just because you raised preflop - with many players against you, many times the flop will be better for them than for you. But you will win more than your fair share (because your starting cards are better), and the pots you win will be larger because you raised preflop.

Don't worry about people being mad with you raising. Have fun with it. Recently, one little old lady didn't like me raising her big blind, and she said she wanted to bop me one. So I leaned over and she hit me on the arm. I asked the dealer to call security, but he was laughing too hard. I ended up apologizing for raising her big blind, but actually I'm more likely to raise her big blind than most other players, just for the fun of it.

One thing that is rare with low limit players is they don't keep track of how many bets are in the pot. You should do that. With 6-8 players typically seeing a flop, you will often find yourself in spots where you have the correct odds to draw at things like inside straights.
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Old 08-29-2018, 06:04 PM   #20
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

welcome (back) to the forum

lots of good advice already in this thread

in the long run that game is likely unbeatable due to rake

it sounds like you're playing better than most of the other players, but you could still make some big improvements in your strategy. for example, the main reason to raise a good hand preflop is never 'to thin the field' - it's to get value. there's no reason to limp good hands 'to mix it up'

you can play stud8 (and rarely stud hi) online on the winning poker network, which is made up of americas cardroom, black chip poker, true poker, etc. they also have some limit holdem games on there
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Old 08-29-2018, 06:06 PM   #21
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

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Is PokerStove being actively maintained and updated? I thought that thing went dormant years ago.

i believe you're right - equilab (same kinda thing as stove) is what folks mostly use these days

can download it here:

https://www.pokerstrategy.com/poker-...quilab-holdem/
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Old 08-30-2018, 02:26 PM   #22
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

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I'm not sure where you play, but let's assume $4 on average is taken for the rake, and $2 is dropped for promos.

That's $6 per hand, which means $600 per hundred hands - $67 per player for every hundred hands played at the table. If you can beat an unraked 2/4 game for 17 BB/100 hands, then you can beat the rake.

I think I did the math right, someone correct me if I messed something up.
OK..I will...that's absolutely ridiculous! Not everyone at table is losing evenly, also, there is a NEVER-ENDING supply of new money coming into the game. So yea while $600 per hundred hands is leaving the table...how much money per 100 hands is being INFUSED! into the table. So tired of hearing how these games are unbeatable LMAO...a table full of fish limping 95% of their hands, raising other 5...and playing fit or fold post flop. is unbeatable because of rake? LMAO! Figure out how to play in these games and you can take your wife on vacation playing 3/6...IMO.
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Old 08-30-2018, 06:08 PM   #23
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

Some people play 3/6 because it's the cheapest way to raise every hand and play blind.
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Old 08-30-2018, 10:17 PM   #24
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

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OK..I will...that's absolutely ridiculous! Not everyone at table is losing evenly, also, there is a NEVER-ENDING supply of new money coming into the game. So yea while $600 per hundred hands is leaving the table...how much money per 100 hands is being INFUSED! into the table. So tired of hearing how these games are unbeatable LMAO...a table full of fish limping 95% of their hands, raising other 5...and playing fit or fold post flop. is unbeatable because of rake? LMAO! Figure out how to play in these games and you can take your wife on vacation playing 3/6...IMO.
So you believe you can beat the game for >17 BB/100 - rake. I didn't say it's not possible, but you do have to play extremely well and make essentially 0 mistakes.
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Old 08-31-2018, 01:10 PM   #25
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Re: Just getting back into poker again some questions about what is new

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So you believe you can beat the game for >17 BB/100 - rake. I didn't say it's not possible, but you do have to play extremely well and make essentially 0 mistakes.
Maybe, lol.. but my point is that while, yes...$600 every hundred hands is leaving the table.. I'd be willing to bet that more than that is being infused into the game per every hundred hands. So whats the big deal about the $600 leaving the game...when it gets replaced..CONTINUALLY! lmao. You make adjustments to nullify the rake..in these games you don't go after peoples blinds in CO...you try to avoid 2-3way pots..especially unraised! And you need to understand how to play in multiway pots..which hands to raise and why..and which hands to just call with and why. etc etc...
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