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How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? How much do you buy-in for in live limit games?

06-04-2011 , 10:01 AM
I just wanna get a check up here on my buy in and stop loss.

I buy in for the 6/12 (3 chip game oc ldo) with two racks. When I loose a rack (i have 200 dollars behind me) I buy another rack (for another 200 dollars). If I loose that (I've lost 400 already) I get up and go home.

In the 8/16 - I buy in for three racks (600 bucks) ... if I loose two racks (400 bucks) I'll buy one more - if I loose that I go home. That is if I loose more than 600 that night - I'm going home.

I keep a total of 10 loses at home in my safe: 4000-6000 dollars ... that's my bankroll ala Tommy angelo ...

sounds good?
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-04-2011 , 11:52 AM
Stop loss - and stop GAIN - should always be measured by asking whether you're playing worse because you're losing (or winning). It's different for different people. If you tilt when you have to rebuy but not as a function of how much that rebuy is, buy in for more. If you tilt when you lose a certain amount but not how many times you buy, buy in for less.

Limiting your losses to 30-ish BB is fine if you don't mind shorter sessions. Like, you shouldn't go to a casino for a 24-hour session and set a stop loss of 30 BB because over 24 h you might swing +/- 60 BB throught the day. I play 0.75-1.25 hour sessions so I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum.
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-04-2011 , 02:42 PM
Stop losses are great in theory, less so in practice. You usually need them when drunk (ok, maybe this is just be) or really tilting. But those are exactly the times when your defenses are low and you'll tend to ignore any such rules anyway. What really works is not bringing beyond $XXX and not bringing any means to get more. Foolproof

As to how much to buy in for, the original thread. I find having more chips is better, everyone tends to give you much credit when you have chips. They don't need to know you are on your third buyin or whatever. So I too love to buy in for 2 racks at the 3-6 chip games because you immediately look like a winner
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-04-2011 , 06:55 PM
Whatever floats your ego. But simply - 30BB in each game with one stack of whites for tips should not embarass you.
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-05-2011 , 05:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian
Stop loss - and stop GAIN - should always be measured by asking whether you're playing worse because you're losing (or winning). It's different for different people. If you tilt when you have to rebuy but not as a function of how much that rebuy is, buy in for more. If you tilt when you lose a certain amount but not how many times you buy, buy in for less.

Limiting your losses to 30-ish BB is fine if you don't mind shorter sessions. Like, you shouldn't go to a casino for a 24-hour session and set a stop loss of 30 BB because over 24 h you might swing +/- 60 BB throught the day. I play 0.75-1.25 hour sessions so I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum.
So you only play an hour plus or minus when you go to the card room? You must live close to it...

I play 6-8 hours at a time ... never more. I find that when I get down to -30 BB I start tilting and getting results oriented. I wish I didn't but I do.

I can't imagine swinging 60 BB ... id loose my mind! Is this common in the higher stakes?
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-05-2011 , 10:08 AM
It is common any time you play in a high variance game. Your win rate doesn't matter much during the time frame of a session.
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-05-2011 , 12:40 PM
I wouldn't say a 60BB swing is *common*, but it is not uncommon. If you play a 6-hour session and your SD for an hour's play is 12BB, a 60BB swing is a 2-sigma event. You should expect a 60BB loss one 6-hour session in twenty.

(That's assuming your results are gaussian-distributed, which they aren't really, central limit theorem notwithstanding.)
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-05-2011 , 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBostick
I wouldn't say a 60BB swing is *common*, but it is not uncommon.

If you play a 6-hour session and your SD for an hour's play is 12BB, a 60BB swing is a 2-sigma event. You should expect a 60BB loss one 6-hour session in twenty.
wow this stuff is over my head - it seems like win rates and ROI and SD and all this stuff is a math platter all to itself! for the 60 bb loss to be an event for me - I would have to bring at least $720 bucks to my 6 game right? - well I only bring 600 - so and leave after I loose 400 or so. otoh - I expect that the same is true for a 60 bb win? what goes down - must go up yes? So I'm thinking: "ok great, I have my stop loss which prevents me from loosing 60bb but at the same time if I'm winning - I can still hit that 60bb score!"

- now I know it's not that simple... and I play, like everyone else for the long term.

Without doing the math or really understanding what you guys are talking about am I fooling myself with this line of thought/buy in strat? (results orientedness aside) ...

I guess I'm not to familiar w SD - I do a search and read up on it (standard dev that is) ... but if you don't mind clarifying for this noob that would be great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBostick
(That's assuming your results are gaussian-distributed, which they aren't really, central limit theorem notwithstanding.)
"gaussian-distributed" also what mean? ... thanks a lot. again I'll do a search ...
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-05-2011 , 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL
It is common any time you play in a high variance game. Your win rate doesn't matter much during the time frame of a session.
So then iow ANY live LHE FR game is "high variance" right?

I've played NLHU online (that's what I was grinding pre BF) and everyone is wow - what swingy game - how can you handle that? My answer: "I started in LHE!" I think that live LHE is a higher - variant game than any of these on-line games including HUNL because live I'm stuck at one table and what/lose I win is what I got (or don't got). Online I could multitable - play bunch of hands - play more which offsets variance. In live I can't do that ... so I think that Live LHE (and perhaps any live poker events period) are higher variant. It can be argued - but I think the more hands you play the less variance you have.

Would you agree with this? IOW if I play a minimum of 40hours a week at a live cardroom am I taking a small step to reduce the variance aot just playing like <20 hours a week (like a descent rec player)?
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-05-2011 , 02:48 PM
bout Tree Fiddy
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-05-2011 , 04:09 PM
Your stop loss makes your session results non-Gaussian. The same would happen with your stop win.

Quote:
or the 60 bb loss to be an event for me - I would have to bring at least $720 bucks to my 6 game right? - well I only bring 600 - so and leave after I loose 400 or so. otoh - I expect that the same is true for a 60 bb win? what goes down - must go up yes? So I'm thinking: "ok great, I have my stop loss which prevents me from loosing 60bb but at the same time if I'm winning - I can still hit that 60bb score!"
However, that avalanche of bad cards can carry through to the next session. Since we're long-run people, we don't care if you quit Tuesday down $400 and came back Wednesday, you can stop loss two days in a row. In my experience, the better the game the more it is possible to lose; the loose wild ones where TPTK isn't enough to win pots and I end up jamming +EV flopped draws that miss. Leo Doc watched me light > 100 bets on fire one weekend having way the best of it. That's LHE.

Quote:
So then iow ANY live LHE FR game is "high variance" right?
LHE has a high variance compared to WR, thus it is swingy in the mid-term. NL has a higher absolute variance, so your session results can be worse. You can get it in 4 hands in a row as a 2:1 favorite and be down 4+ buyins in a single round. In the long run, the fact that you were a 2:1 favorite on a $200 buyin or a $500 buyin will mean your potential WR will crush the swings.
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-05-2011 , 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonsimplesimon
So you only play an hour plus or minus when you go to the card room? You must live close to it.
I live within 5 miles but my work is less than 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nonsimplesimon
It can be argued - but I think the more hands you play the less variance you have.

Would you agree with this? IOW if I play a minimum of 40hours a week at a live cardroom am I taking a small step to reduce the variance aot just playing like <20 hours a week (like a descent rec player)?
You will reduce the absolute variance, like the swings per unit time elapsed, but it won't change the swings per unit time played.

If you play 1 orbit every year, chances are you won't win or lose more than a rack. But you'll progress really slowly too.
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-06-2011 , 01:58 AM
last time I had a -50BB swing in a session I ended up 25BBs. That's what I think of stop losses.

A full kill 4 chip 8 chip game I buy-in 3 racks because serio it can fly out of your hands no problem. It does get you noticed though. I've seen good players sit down with a few $100 chips to not stand out too much. I should start doing that. A non-kill 4 chip 8 chip 2 racks should be fine.
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-06-2011 , 12:29 PM
Variance, for lack of a better term, is "faster" in loose games. The downswings happen quicker when they happen, because they usually come from big hands not holding up and big draws not getting there in big pots.

In tight games, the variance is still significant, but it plays out over more hands. You get card dead, or you lose a bunch of small / medium sized pots to blind defenders and stealers who make hands.

As for OP's question, buy in enough so that you can always keep 12BB's+ on the table without having to rebuy every 20 minutes.
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-06-2011 , 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeca
While it is very rare to see guys go all in with any significant stack (ie, they had significantly more than 12 BB at the start of the hand), you do see guys that will go a number of bets beyond the cap, sometimes with significantly less than the current nuts. This is a good reason to always have more than 12 BB on the table.
I posted a hand in the LC thread a few days ago about a guy going 8 bets on the river w/ the nut flush on a paired board and the guy w/ AA which was full only called his 8 bet...and this is at 20/40.
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-07-2011 , 01:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeakWetter
bout Tree Fiddy
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-07-2011 , 03:08 AM
If ur down 3+ racks in a session and you see a "hot" seat open up at the table--do you guys try to change to that seat so maybe ur luck will change or is where you sit entirely based on the best view for looking left?
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-07-2011 , 03:21 AM
The world of hot seats, set ups and unlucky dealers is like the matrix.

There is no spoon.
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-07-2011 , 08:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bstillmatic
If ur down 3+ racks in a session and you see a "hot" seat open up at the table--do you guys try to change to that seat so maybe ur luck will change or is where you sit entirely based on the best view for looking left?
Are you still capable of playing your A game? Regardless if I were up or down, I'd look to put the worst players at the table on my right. Money flows clockwise around the table, and I want to be downstream of the people producing money. I'd also peek around the room and see if there are other, more profitable seats available. The difference between the most profitable seat in the room at your limit(s) and a merely OK seat is huge. The difference might be more than the difference between being a meh player and a great one. If it is possible to change seats/tables and you only do it after getting stuck a ton, you have a large hole in your poker skill-set.
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-07-2011 , 09:59 AM
I would love to move to the hot seat if the player one or two to the right of that seat is the worst in that game. Then I don't have to make awkward excuses why I am moving again directly next to him, I can say "I've been getting killed, lock me up the hot seat"
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-07-2011 , 11:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bstillmatic
If ur down 3+ racks in a session and you see a "hot" seat open up at the table--do you guys try to change to that seat so maybe ur luck will change or is where you sit entirely based on the best view for looking left?
Neither. I want the easy money to my right.

Money flows clockwise around the table. I would much, much rather have first crack at it than last.

Last edited by AlanBostick; 06-07-2011 at 11:11 AM. Reason: Just saw that DougL said essentially the same thing.
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-07-2011 , 01:02 PM
Pfft, I chip dump to the person on my right just to spite you guys.
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-07-2011 , 08:16 PM
This thread has inspired me to change my buy in from 1.5 to 2 racks (3 chip/6 chip game), and I am currently undefeated since this change (1 session)
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-08-2011 , 08:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotMitch
This thread has inspired me to change my buy in from 1.5 to 2 racks (3 chip/6 chip game), and I am currently undefeated since this change (1 session)
expert
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote
06-11-2011 , 03:50 AM
just wondering...whats the rake like in those white chip games?
How much do you buy-in for in live limit games? Quote

      
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