Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Fourth club hits the river Fourth club hits the river

08-04-2024 , 09:10 AM
This is from a videogame but I'm sure this situation could come up in a live 4/8 game. I'm also going to admit that I'm posting this prior to doing any Flopzillaing - when I get around to that I'll post the results later.

UTG raises, 3 coldcallers, I'm on the button with 79 and I call. SB coldcalls BB calls.

7 players, 14sb, flop AJ6.
SB checks, BB bets, 4 callers, I raise, SB coldcalls, BB 3!, 4 coldcallers, I 4!, everybody calls.

7 players, 21BB (ROFLMAO - yeah, this videogame is a little wild!), turn 4
4 checks, a bet, a call and I raise. Nobody folds, nobody raises.

7 players, 35BB (MAN I'd love to see pots like this in real life!!!!!!), river 2
Checked around to me.

This HAS to be a value bet, yes? I mean come on, there are literally FOUR CARDS IN THE ENTIRE DECK I'm afraid of here!!!! It is true that in this video game the AI sometimes tries to checkraise a huge hand. In the real games I play, nobody goes for a checkraise with the K or Q here - they bet out for fear of not getting value on their monster hand. J and T sometimes get bet out and sometimes get check-called. I think this is a clear value bet, and if I do get checkraised I think I curse and call one raise. The only situation under which it would even be a DECISION is if I bet, I get checkraised and someone 3-bets, but that's so unlikely to happen it's probably not even worth wasting the time considering it.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I probably play the whole hand the same in real life. It's rare for it to not be correct to jam a flopped 9-high flush draw and it's CERTAINLY rare to not raise a COMPLETED flush on the turn when bet into after bloating the pot on the flop. In the videogame you have to pause and be aware of a checkraise on the river, but in real life, anybody who has you beat is betting into you (though you have to call one bet in that gigantic pot).

Last edited by DalTXColtsFan; 08-04-2024 at 09:32 AM.
Fourth club hits the river Quote
08-04-2024 , 09:26 AM
In the games I play a UTG raise USUALLY means QQ+ or AK, full stop (but it depends on the villain). If I give UTG that ultratight range and give the rest of the villains my favorite preflop range (any pair, suited, broadway or ace, most offsuit kings and most offsuit connectors), 79s has a hot/cold equity of about 13.6% 7 ways.

I think coldcalling it on the button in a likely 7-way pot is fine. I'd probably do the same in real life.

I would probably coldcall from the SB with this facing a likely 7-way pot (but I wouldn't like it), and calling from the BB for one bet is a no-brainer.

Facing a UTG raise, I fold this from UTG+1, UTG+2 or MP no matter how many coldcallers were ahead of me. From the HJ or CO I probably coldcall this if there are at least 3 other people in the pot but fold if there are only 2.
Fourth club hits the river Quote
08-04-2024 , 11:18 AM
I’m not familiar with poker video games but in a real game I’m not sure if your 9 high flush is any good on the turn. I might be wrong but there’s no way I’m betting the river. Someone can easily have two non suited broadways with the Ten or Jack of clubs or a scared Queen of clubs.
Fourth club hits the river Quote
08-04-2024 , 02:36 PM
I would not raise flop, we're not really accomplishing much since our flush draw is so bad. Definitely not 4betting the second time around. Turn raise is good. River I check back for sure, as high clubs are the most likely continue on the turn.
Fourth club hits the river Quote
08-04-2024 , 05:33 PM
I’m fine with the first flop raise but would absolutely not 4bet the flop. If you have a bunch of people call two more cold on the flop after you raise, there is a reasonable chance that one or more of them have a better flush draw. Even if there is someone with a worse flush draw (unlikely given that you have the 9c and 7c and there is the 6c out), that’s 2 fewer clubs in the deck.

Turn raise is good (though I’d puke if 3bet), but you absolutely need to check the river. There are four clubs higher than the 9c, three of them are going to check-call, and you’re not getting any of them to fold in a pot of this size. It’s pointless as a value bet because you’re not getting called by many worse hands. There are obviously miracles where no one has a flush and you get rage-called by a set, but the overwhelming majority of the time, betting the river is lighting a big bet on fire.
Fourth club hits the river Quote
08-06-2024 , 04:33 AM
I happily check back the river as I'm unlikely to get called by worse. And I expect to lose the majority of the time.

The nuts here is the 35 of clubs. Someone could have it, and that hand would be more likely to try for a check-raise.

The Kc might try for a check-raise from early position but would mostly bet. However, the other big clubs that beat you are all more likely to check-call from early and middle position in such a multiway pot. The Qc might lead from late position.

What are you targeting with a value bet, the 8c exactly? The only other solo clubs you beat are the 5 and 3, and I doubt you're getting called by a non-flush hand.

What I like about this example is it illustrates how hard it can be to put opponents on a hand when their ranges are so wide and so many of them continue to the river despite (or maybe because of?) heavy betting action on all streets. When I play $4/$8 and $6/$12, I routinely see players call or even cold-call two bets preflop with hands like J4o and Q6o, as if one face card is sufficient reason to see the flop from any position for any number of bets. So consider the K, Q, J, or T of clubs with literally any other card in the deck—those are all the combos you have to worry about.

Last edited by agamblerthen; 08-06-2024 at 04:39 AM.
Fourth club hits the river Quote
08-06-2024 , 07:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by agamblerthen

What I like about this example is it illustrates how hard it can be to put opponents on a hand when their ranges are so wide and so many of them continue to the river despite (or maybe because of?) heavy betting action on all streets. When I play $4/$8 and $6/$12, I routinely see players call or even cold-call two bets preflop with hands like J4o and Q6o, as if one face card is sufficient reason to see the flop from any position for any number of bets. So consider the K, Q, J, or T of clubs with literally any other card in the deck—those are all the combos you have to worry about.
This. I miss value in fear of these hands sometimes, and other times I value bet a 'safe' river card only to see the 2p they just made with J2 with the river deuce. It is holding me back from a better wr. And other things, but also this.
Fourth club hits the river Quote
08-14-2024 , 03:23 PM
Just a side note...this is one of my favorite spots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm check-raising you everytime here, doesn't matter what I have! It just looks SOOOOO damn strong if you don't have the NUT flush. Ok, this pot maybe to huge for it to work, but having said that. this pot is too huge not to try it!
Fourth club hits the river Quote

      
m