We’re just going in circles at this point. The hands they will fold to a raise are hands you already beat.

Preflop is awful.

Wow I did not expect this thread to live so long.

I ran some equity calcs vs. a variety of pretty loose ranges I find in my game, and the JTo is actually at a small equity disadvantage, but hitting a 7 way flop hard and taking down a big pot probably makes up for it.

The variety of opinions from the excellent players here tells me this is one of those spots where its close and will not affect long term results either way.

I disagree, A10, QQ, JJ, Q10....all have us beat and I believe would fold to a check raise when king falls on river.

Idk what games you’re playing in but I doubt it.

There’s an extremely specific player type where a raise on the river might work (think “middling TAG who tries really hard to play well”), but nothing in the OP suggests we are dealing with that kind of player. Even if we were, a bluff raise would be targeting a pretty narrow set of hands and we’re not in the right part of our range to turn our hand into a bluff.

i highly doubt anyone can conclusively say that pf is any worse or better than breakeven. so play it for fun.

bluffing river would be LOL bad though. like 1 big bet mistake bad, which is much worse than any preflop mistake.

High cards are important in limit holdem KJ > QJ > QT > JT. JTo is pretty weak.

Yes and I expect middling tag to be raising with all those hands except QT and might not bet river with QT. So putting them in her range would be a mistake.

Yes, I already suspected that better one pair hands represent a narrow range of hands to target and you’ve identified yet another reason to discount them.

By the river we can narrow her hands down to a very narrow range. 55, 22, 10/10, QQ, JJ, A10, Q10...we are targeting the bold hands, which seem to be a large part of her range by the river.....you say we are not in right part of our range to turn into a bluff? I assume you mean our hand is too strong to turn into a bluff? Judging from the way the hand was played..our hand is garbage!!!!! by the river lol....

I think the question is........what games are YOU..playing in? We are talking 4/8 not 10/20.

I disagree...a middling tag @ a 10/20 table ok, I agree.....but a middling TAG at a REGULAR 4/8 table would definitely limp in with all those hands..I've played with them!!! their preflop raising range is exactly!!!! AA.KK, AK, maaaaaaybbe QQ. I think once again alot of you are bringing 10/20 assumptions to a 4/8 game.

Once again....I disagree LMAO!... callin in this situation is lighting money on fire. However, if she doesn't have the sets...then a check-raise might work here on most of the other hands in her range.

If that’s the best play with JT in this spot then count me in the fold pre camp, because I definitely don’t want to make top pair and turn it into a bluff to try to get a better hand to fold by the river.

LMAO!!! Yea you made top pair...with a garbage kicker. So you are limping in this spot with JT hoping you make top pair??????? of course not! you're trying to make two pair or a straight! No one wants to make top pair with a garbage kicker and have someone betting into them, but if it does happen and the situation is such that a check raise bluff might work on river, you do what's called for! I'd bet raising here is better than calling.

because I definitely don’t want to make top pair and turn it into a bluff to try to get a better hand to fold by the river.[/QUOTE]

Doesn't this happen a fair amount of the time? There are many hands you are going to limp that are going to have kicker problems if you make top pair...suited aces come to mind. And the situation might be such that a check-raise bluff would work. However, from your reasoning I guess you shouldn't be playing suited aces and many other hands for fear of flopping top pair and needing to turn it into a bluff by river?????

Can you type like a normal person? The way you write is very obnoxious tbh.

Hoping to hit bingo with JTo is a losing strategy. It’s simply not in the same class of hands as suited aces. Yes I absolutely think one of the values of JTo is that it can make decent top pair.

Absolutely it’s not a great kicker but that doesn’t mean it somehow goes from bluff catcher to “turn it into a bluff”. You don’t get to win every hand.

There are (rare) times where it makes sense to turn a pair into a bluff. This is not one of them. Not even close.

First....If ur limping or raising JTo hoping to hit top pair and have it hold....that's looking for bingo! Second.. if the chances of hitting BINGO! are correct...then its not a losing strategy to hope for BINGO! LMAO...yea it can make a DECENT top pair...and a DECENT top pair can lose you alot of money!!!! to a BETTER top pair.

Absolutely it’s not a great kicker but that doesn’t mean it somehow goes from bluff catcher to “turn it into a bluff”. You don’t get to win every hand.[/QUOTE]

I DONT GET TO WIN EVERY HAND?????? WHAAAATTTTT????? WOW NEWS FLASH! LMAO!!!!!!! ....and no its not a great kicker...and in this situation...it absolutely does turn into a bluff...if its CLEAR ur beat by river...and opportunity is presented where ur bluff makes sense....

So you say. I say raising here is better than calling and giving ur chips away! and its not even close! lmao....

i dont think slim.shady plays LHE.

LMAO!!!!! .......... I guess when some of you can't think of anything to say to logically contradict my statements...you resort to blatant STUPIDITY! lmao....

For whatever little it may or may not add to the conversation:

I think the question of whether or not call the river HU getting 12 to 1 isn't just limited to whether or not we think we're good there 9% of the time. There's also tilt considerations both on hero's part and villain's part. Folding for one bet in a huge pot and being shown a bluff can put Commander Data from Star Trek TNG on tilt which costs more than one big bet. Also, it can put a villain on tilt when he tries to bluff and gets picked off by third pair which can obviously often lead to profits of more than one big bet.

I once called a villain down with ace-king high, not because of any logic, but because I just didn't want to fold, and it turned out he bet 3 streets with a straight flush draw that missed. He actually berated me for calling him with ace high on the river and was clearly on tilt for the next hour. I honestly never really took the time to count combos and see whether or not it might have actually been the correct play vs. just dumb luck, but I'm not sure that's the point - the point is how profitable it can be to put somoene on tilt and stay off of it yourself.

One last point: It's important to remember the times you called for one bet when you were "clearly beat" and it turned out you weren't. I once played a hand where a villain 4-bet me pre when I 3-bet JJ then 3-bet me on the flop when I raised him (flop was raggedy undercards). I called him down. By the river the 4/8 pot was up to about $250. I said, "I can't fold here" and called. He turned over rags. He literally had no hand and no draw.

Tilt is real....but calling to hopefully put someone on Tilt in situation where you are beat 98% of the time is silly.

I once called a villain down with ace-king high, not because of any logic, but because I just didn't want to fold So, using this logic we should NEVER be folding lmao..blindly call everything and hope we put Villian on tilt, lol...