8-16 you hold Kc3c in the BB. UTG and UTG+1 call as well as 3off, cutoff and SB.

Flop comes AcTs7c. SB bets, you call, UTG calls and UTG+1 raises. 3off calls, cutoff folds, SB calls.

1) Do you call or 3-bet?

I call and UTG calls, 8 big bets five handed.

Turn comes Jd. Now after blinds check, UTG springs to action and bets. UTG+1 raises and 3off 3-bets.

SB tanks for a minute, folds and it's on you.

2) Do you fold or call?

If it's capped you're getting 5/1. If it stops at 3 you're getting 5.66/1 so for simplicity's sake say you're getting 5.5/1 direct.

3bet flop. As played, I would call. But I could be wrong about that.

Flop is good, I don’t like raising here out of position without an overcast.

You are getting direct odds to call turn with 11 outs

I agree with 3-betting the flop.

OTT, unless both opponents are known spewy maniacs, you rarely have 9 clean outs to your nut flush. However, you do have at least 2 additional outs to a chop if one or both opponents has Broadway, so since you're getting slightly better than 4:1 you can call.

However, if there's any chance UTG+1 will cap, since you have to call the cap, I'd just cap myself.

[QUOTE=Snap It Off;55356476]8-16 you hold Kc3c in the BB. UTG and UTG+1 call as well as 3off, cutoff and SB.

Flop comes AcTs7c. SB bets, you call, UTG calls and UTG+1 raises. 3off calls, cutoff folds, SB calls.

1) Do you call or 3-bet?

I call and UTG calls, 8 big bets five handed.


Am I missing something? You have the nut flush on flop 5 handed with at least 3 people ur sure will call and another thats likely too.....and you just call? Seems like you'd want to get as much money in as possible! 3bet cap all in etc...

Turn is an easy call.....

[QUOTE=Dead.money.is.back;55357411] He has the nut flush DRAW OTF

I don't like this poker logic. It may ultimately be the right play to cap it yourself, but the reasoning is unhelpful.

[QUOTE=Kurn, son of Mogh;55357425] Forgive me..I left out the word draw..

Why not? I think that way all the time in a situation like that. Your hands to strong to fold and the likely hood of it being capped behind you is great...just cap urself...

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if you have the nut flush DRAW on the flop and you know at least 4 people will call whatever you put in pot.....shouldn't you be trying to get as much money in the pot as possible?

1) worst case scenario: Jc and Tc aren’t outs and someone already has KQ

Here, you have 7 scoop outs and 2-3 chop outs, depending if KQ has Qc. Sake of this call it 2. Aka 8 outs in 46 = 17.4% equity. You need 4.75:1 on your money to call.

Here you’re getting 14:3 not closing the action, around 4.66. A worst case scenario would essentially be UTG 4 bets, next guy folds and you put 4 bets in on the turn, essentially 18:4 on your $ (4.5:1). And if you hit a clean card you’re going to make 2 bets almost always. Looks like a clear call and enjoy the variance spot.


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[QUOTE=jdr0317;55357478]1) worst case scenario: Jc and Tc aren’t outs and someone already has KQ

If your talking about the turn and not the flop then yes I agree. Ewww I think i just threw up in my mouth, lmao..I agreed with JRD smh whats world coming too?

Whether or not you think that way is irrelevant to the question at hand. The argument as constructed expresses basically no poker logic.

So you say! If you're never folding and once again its almost certain that someone behind will cap...YOU SHOULD CAP URSELF! And yes you prob don't gain that much, hell maybe nothing at all. However! You DEFINITELY don't gain anything by just calling. AND OUTCOME IS SAME...so one action gives you no advantage...the other MAY give you a minuscule advantage and both actions put u in same spot at end of day. Poker logic lmao..how about just common sense!

If this were the river, you might have a point. But it's not, so the poker logic is clearly lacking.

You shouldn't cap it yourself because you might get to only pay 3 bets instead of 4 bets. Since you don't have an equity edge, it's better to put in less bets than more bets.

While in this specific case, OP capping himself may not be correct, the general poker logic is simply taking aggressive action rather than remaining passive.

Just as an exercise, I'm trying to put people on hands here.

I'm putting 3-off, the flop cold-caller, on 89, possibly 89c (though most would 3-bet that hand with two draws). The turn raise supports this idea.

I'm putting UTG +1, who raised twice (flop + turn) on ATo+, or possibly trip 777. Wouldn't be surprised to see AJ.

I'm putting UTG, who limped early (he didn't open right?), on KQ, maybe KQs.

Someone has a straight. You have 4 outs to likely chop (Q, although someone probably has one already) and then 9 flush outs. Although, as has been noted, the J and T may be no good.

Call the chop worth 2.25 outs and the flush outs worth 7.5. I changed the numbers a little because it is possible, if unlikely, that no one else has a Q and no one else has trips.

Let's say 8.5 outs - Counted Qc twice - maybe a little less accounting for the possibility of 89c from 3off. I think you have just short of what is needed to cap.

Many better players on here than me - would be interested to hear about others' thoughts on hand-reading.

You're probably right that OP does not have quite enough equity to cap, but since it's going to get capped some percent of the time and he'll call, he's only saving a partial BB by calling.

That's still not much of a thought process. Aggression is not correct simply because it's aggressive. What does aggression actually accomplish for you in that spot?

Case in point. In this case, you're arguing that aggression will lose money relative to calling (only a small amount). So being aggressive simply to be aggressive cannot be sufficient reasoning.

You’re thinking about this the wrong way. Just because it might be capped and we will end up calling doesn’t mean that it will be capped. If there is any chance that it will not be, then obviously you shouldn’t cap it because you make more money by “only” paying 3 bets versus paying 4 bet.

To much nittery from some of you ppl. This comes up once in a great while and you are worried about some piece of a bet bec, OMG! MATH! Here's my take: I cap this hand every time as long as I've got a good thing to shout. 'You want crazy? I'll show you crazy!' 'All of you are on a draw, and you're all going to miss!'

Seriously, though, don't get caught up in potentially saving a fraction of a bet here and there. Emphasis on the here and there.

*grunch*

Flop I 3bet. Nut flush draw and back door nut straight draw 5 ways on the flop I have way more than my share of equity. I'm pumping this up. Nom nom sklansky bucks. Back door straight is one card so you might chop but I do this even with just the flush draw.

Turn call. Your back door straight draw just got turned into a gutter. Your paying a lot but pot is too big and you have too much equity to fold. It's a lot cold, but folding is a travesty.

3 bet the flop

never fold the turn, ever.