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Old 04-11-2018, 05:21 PM   #1
Mysteriouswon1
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Exploitive Behind

9 Handed Game

Noticed the other day that medium level reg player(non maniac) on my left would call or 3 bet 100% of the time when I opened UTG or UTG+1. (Second time I have noticed this player do this)

Seeing how my range is pretty well defined to whatís listed for early position play in SSHE(with very rare deviations to keep players honest), how do I avoid exploitive play from a player who knows Iím basically always going to show up with 88+, ABroadway, KBroadway in these situations.

Itís Live 4/8 so there is generally some table protection from calling stations, but still feel as if Iím being exploited whenever no Ace or one or less pictures flops due to my nitty range.

I noticed this happening a few times previously online in micro stakes as well.

What is a good way to exploit their exploitive behavior in these situations given that these hands are very seldom heads up?

1. Pour on additional aggression post flop regardless of make/miss?
2. Check Raise more often with both makes and misses?
3. Tighten/Loosen Range
4. ...

Or just seat/table change because there are easier situations out there.

Do any of you recommend good books/articles for countering this play?(As well as potentially adding this play to my own repertoire)

Basically, when I donít hit the nuts, I want this player to get off mine.
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Old 04-11-2018, 06:01 PM   #2
Aaron W.
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Re: Exploitive Behind

I've rearranged your post a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysteriouswon1 View Post
9 Handed Game

Noticed the other day that medium level reg player(non maniac) on my left would call or 3 bet 100% of the time when I opened UTG or UTG+1. (Second time I have noticed this player do this)

...

Itís Live 4/8 so there is generally some table protection from calling stations, but still feel as if Iím being exploited whenever no Ace or one or less pictures flops due to my nitty range.
At a 4/8 game where he's not isolating you, I'm doubtful that this is a thing you should be concerned about.

Quote:
Seeing how my range is pretty well defined to whatís listed for early position play in SSHE(with very rare deviations to keep players honest), how do I avoid exploitive play from a player who knows Iím basically always going to show up with 88+, ABroadway, KBroadway in these situations.
The thing you *might* be doing is folding too much postflop. To avoid being exploited, fold less postflop.

Quote:
I noticed this happening a few times previously online in micro stakes as well.
This makes me think you're falling victim of selective memory.

Quote:
What is a good way to exploit their exploitive behavior in these situations given that these hands are very seldom heads up?

1. Pour on additional aggression post flop regardless of make/miss?
2. Check Raise more often with both makes and misses?
3. Tighten/Loosen Range
4. ...
Fold less often. If someone really is trying to exploit you when you enter the hand from early position with a narrow range, it's probably your postflop game that's being exploited.

Quote:
Or just seat/table change because there are easier situations out there.
Or play better postflop.

Quote:
Do any of you recommend good books/articles for countering this play?(As well as potentially adding this play to my own repertoire)

Basically, when I donít hit the nuts, I want this player to get off mine.
Why? Do you believe that this is the most profitable thing for you when you don't have the nuts?
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Old 04-11-2018, 06:48 PM   #3
dead.money
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Re: Exploitive Behind

if you're playing a standard range UTG and UTG+1 and this guy is blindly coming along...you should be happy...You're going to be ahead alot! If he is just throwing 3 bets at you..RERAISE! If he is being selective in his 3 bets...you can put him on a tiny range(10's+, A10+) and play off that. Seems like you should be exploiting him, not worrying about him exploiting you?
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Old 04-11-2018, 09:58 PM   #4
Mysteriouswon1
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Re: Exploitive Behind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post

At a 4/8 game where he's not isolating you, I'm doubtful that this is a thing you should be concerned about.
By in large I think youíre right. But it certainly made it more difficult to play, so I thought there might be something I needed to add to my game on both sides of this concept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
The thing you *might* be doing is folding too much postflop. To avoid being exploited, fold less postflop.
I like this heads up for sure. Iím generally cbetting or peeling 90% of the time with my tight range on the flop. But I am folding often if unimproved on the turn. (Could play a little looser here maybe, but again, very multiway, so not sure how crazy I should be getting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
This makes me think you're falling victim of selective memory.
I do have this issue as much as the next with my limited experience, but these are just observations against 2 specific players. Since it was only during a few sessions it certainly could have been some sort of variance and a non sequitur. But because of the difficult positions it put me in I thought there may be something to looking at it a little more deeply.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
Fold less often. If someone really is trying to exploit you when you enter the hand from early position with a narrow range, it's probably your postflop game that's being exploited.
Will need to experiment with this.

Or play better postflop. [/QUOTE]

Thatís what Iím here for.


Why? Do you believe that this is the most profitable thing for you when you don't have the nuts?[/QUOTE]

I was kidding, I just wanted to tell the guy to get off my nuts.
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Old 04-11-2018, 10:13 PM   #5
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Re: Exploitive Behind

Directly on your left? If this is happening at 4-8 you must be playing so 'by the book' that your cards are face up. You can try a few things: 4-bet his 3! every time, toss in a few curve balls EP (hard to imagine you need to do that at 4-8) or move away from him/table change if you can't adjust.

For myself I'd pick the 4-bet, lead every flop scenario when HU until you slow him down.
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Old 04-11-2018, 10:31 PM   #6
Mysteriouswon1
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Re: Exploitive Behind

Quote:
Originally Posted by dead.money View Post
if you're playing a standard range UTG and UTG+1 and this guy is blindly coming along...you should be happy...You're going to be ahead alot! If he is just throwing 3 bets at you..RERAISE! If he is being selective in his 3 bets...you can put him on a tiny range(10's+, A10+) and play off that. Seems like you should be exploiting him, not worrying about him exploiting you?
Agreed, I far prefer him to 3 bet me in this scenario. But he flat calls instead about 90% of the time, effectively encouraging more players to come along. Great for value but early position range isnít always the best multiway. (The odds are better for my hands, but there is something to be said for the pot size of hands my range usually wins vs the pot size of all the crazy hands Iím dodging.)

Youíre right though, I need to stop thinking about him as an annoying little gnat, and more as my lucky leprechaun who splashes my pots with extra gold.
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Old 04-12-2018, 09:07 AM   #7
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Re: Exploitive Behind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysteriouswon1 View Post
a player who knows I’m basically always going to show up with 88+, ABroadway, KBroadway in these situations.
Something like this? 88+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysteriouswon1 View Post
Agreed, I far prefer him to 3 bet me in this scenario. But he flat calls instead about 90% of the time, effectively encouraging more players to come along. Great for value but early position range isn’t always the best multiway.
As a new player, it is sometimes easy to be fooled by the "multiway potential" of some hands. Winning 25% of the time in a 6 way pot is both crushing the game equity wise and quite disappointing. Which of the hands above is "bad" multiway? 88? AQo? Once their kicker is worse than your pocket pair or they play dominated Ax, your hand is a dominating crusher multiway. Sure, you're losing to hidden low two pairs or sneaky trips, and somebody is hitting their 85o for a stealth double gutter disturbingly often. However, you're printing money.

Let's look at your range 6 ways. We have your "nemesis" who 3 bets 5% and calls 90%. We have a typical 3% 3! and calls 50% cold caller. A 3% and 60% next cold caller and both blinds playing 100% of hands. Your UTG range has 30% equity 6 ways. That's almost double your fair share. You're printing money in this spot.

Equity Win Tie
UTG 28.91% 28.11% 0.81% { 88+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+ }
UTG+1 13.47% 12.58% 0.89% { 77-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, AQo-A2o, K2o+, Q2o+, J2o+, T2o+, 93o+, 84o+, 74o+, 64o+, 53o+ }
MP1 15.35% 14.32% 1.02% { 88-33, AQs-A2s, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K4o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T7o+, 98o }
MP2 14.91% 13.92% 0.99% { 88-22, AQs-A2s, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T3s+, 95s+, 85s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q5o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o }
SB 13.68% 12.82% 0.86% { random }
BB 13.68% 12.83% 0.85% { random }

This is not you being exploited. Your premium hands play well in every situation.

Equity Win Tie
UTG 23.39% 23.07% 0.32% { 88 }
UTG+1 13.99% 13.04% 0.95% { same bad hands }
MP1 17.43% 16.32% 1.11% { same bad hands }
MP2 16.56% 15.48% 1.09% { same bad hands }
SB 14.33% 13.43% 0.90% { random }
BB 14.30% 13.42% 0.88% { random }

Equity Win Tie
UTG 22.62% 21.19% 1.43% { AJo }
UTG+1 14.67% 13.63% 1.04% { same bad hands }
MP1 16.51% 15.30% 1.22% { same bad hands }
MP2 16.26% 15.09% 1.17% { same bad hands }
SB 15.00% 14.01% 0.99% { random }
BB 14.94% 13.96% 0.98% { random }

Your two worst hands are wildly profitable.

If you're playing wider than this, download equilab and re-run the simulations I did (you can copy my villain ranges into the sim). It is a great tool and worth learning.

Last edited by DougL; 04-12-2018 at 09:15 AM.
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Old 04-12-2018, 06:32 PM   #8
dead.money
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Re: Exploitive Behind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysteriouswon1 View Post
Agreed, I far prefer him to 3 bet me in this scenario. But he flat calls instead about 90% of the time, effectively encouraging more players to come along. Great for value but early position range isnít always the best multiway. (The odds are better for my hands, but there is something to be said for the pot size of hands my range usually wins vs the pot size of all the crazy hands Iím dodging.)

Youíre right though, I need to stop thinking about him as an annoying little gnat, and more as my lucky leprechaun who splashes my pots with extra gold.
lmao! They're magically delicous..., lol.
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Old 04-12-2018, 07:50 PM   #9
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Re: Exploitive Behind

I’ve seen a magical behind or two
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Old 04-14-2018, 08:58 AM   #10
Bob148
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Re: Exploitive Behind

If the table is folding often? I'd expand my opening range.

If the table is calling, 3 betting, and 4 betting often? I'd tighten up a bit.
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Old 04-15-2018, 11:08 AM   #11
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Re: Exploitive Behind

grunch

To be polite, let's just say that a fixed limit hold'em forum is not where I'd expect to see a thread with this title.
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Old 04-16-2018, 03:35 PM   #12
dead.money
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Re: Exploitive Behind

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Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
grunch

To be polite, let's just say that a fixed limit hold'em forum is not where I'd expect to see a thread with this title.

Why? Just curious.
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Old 04-16-2018, 04:16 PM   #13
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Re: Exploitive Behind

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Old 04-17-2018, 11:55 AM   #14
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Re: Exploitive Behind

Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
grunch

To be polite, let's just say that a fixed limit hold'em forum is not where I'd expect to see a thread with this title.
Stop being so anal retentive.
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Old 04-17-2018, 12:08 PM   #15
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Re: Exploitive Behind

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Stop being so anal retentive.
Spoiler:
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Old 04-17-2018, 12:59 PM   #16
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Re: Exploitive Behind

blow it out yer a@@ calli.....


/love and affection
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Old 04-17-2018, 01:06 PM   #17
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Re: Exploitive Behind

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blow it out yer a@@ calli.....


/love and affection
Stop making me the butt of your jokes: the punctuation is intentional.
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Old 04-24-2018, 04:54 PM   #18
Mysteriouswon1
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Wink Re: Exploitive Behind

Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
grunch

To be polite, let's just say that a fixed limit hold'em forum is not where I'd expect to see a thread with this title.
Donít be such a party...pooper?
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Old 04-24-2018, 04:56 PM   #19
Mysteriouswon1
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Re: Exploitive Behind

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
Something like this? 88+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+


As a new player, it is sometimes easy to be fooled by the "multiway potential" of some hands. Winning 25% of the time in a 6 way pot is both crushing the game equity wise and quite disappointing. Which of the hands above is "bad" multiway? 88? AQo? Once their kicker is worse than your pocket pair or they play dominated Ax, your hand is a dominating crusher multiway. Sure, you're losing to hidden low two pairs or sneaky trips, and somebody is hitting their 85o for a stealth double gutter disturbingly often. However, you're printing money.

Let's look at your range 6 ways. We have your "nemesis" who 3 bets 5% and calls 90%. We have a typical 3% 3! and calls 50% cold caller. A 3% and 60% next cold caller and both blinds playing 100% of hands. Your UTG range has 30% equity 6 ways. That's almost double your fair share. You're printing money in this spot.

Equity Win Tie
UTG 28.91% 28.11% 0.81% { 88+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+ }
UTG+1 13.47% 12.58% 0.89% { 77-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, AQo-A2o, K2o+, Q2o+, J2o+, T2o+, 93o+, 84o+, 74o+, 64o+, 53o+ }
MP1 15.35% 14.32% 1.02% { 88-33, AQs-A2s, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K4o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T7o+, 98o }
MP2 14.91% 13.92% 0.99% { 88-22, AQs-A2s, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T3s+, 95s+, 85s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q5o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o }
SB 13.68% 12.82% 0.86% { random }
BB 13.68% 12.83% 0.85% { random }

This is not you being exploited. Your premium hands play well in every situation.

Equity Win Tie
UTG 23.39% 23.07% 0.32% { 88 }
UTG+1 13.99% 13.04% 0.95% { same bad hands }
MP1 17.43% 16.32% 1.11% { same bad hands }
MP2 16.56% 15.48% 1.09% { same bad hands }
SB 14.33% 13.43% 0.90% { random }
BB 14.30% 13.42% 0.88% { random }

Equity Win Tie
UTG 22.62% 21.19% 1.43% { AJo }
UTG+1 14.67% 13.63% 1.04% { same bad hands }
MP1 16.51% 15.30% 1.22% { same bad hands }
MP2 16.26% 15.09% 1.17% { same bad hands }
SB 15.00% 14.01% 0.99% { random }
BB 14.94% 13.96% 0.98% { random }

Your two worst hands are wildly profitable.

If you're playing wider than this, download equilab and re-run the simulations I did (you can copy my villain ranges into the sim). It is a great tool and worth learning.

I get the concept of this. Still working to have full comprehension.

Thanks to all for the help. Good stuff to think on all around.
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Old 04-29-2018, 02:04 AM   #20
gr26
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Re: Exploitive Behind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysteriouswon1 View Post
Iím being exploited whenever no Ace or one or less pictures flops due to my nitty range.
Exploit him when the ace or picture on the flop (and you hasnt hit)
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Old 05-01-2018, 01:25 PM   #21
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Re: Exploitive Behind

If you're being three bet isolated by a guy that is three betting you w/ a wider range than you open, then you simply exploit him by making him show down a better hand. If you're opening a tight range and they're still three betting you w/ K7s, then they simply won't outflop you often enough to win without significant FE.
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Old 05-02-2018, 03:16 PM   #22
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Re: Exploitive Behind

In these situations, almost all of the pots are going to be pretty big.

Which means your basic task is to win a larger percentage of the pots that you enter into than your opponents. The player who does that makes the most money long term.

How do you win a larger percentage of the pots? By playing hands that get more than their fair share of equity in a big multi-way pot, and not playing hands that do not.
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Old 05-11-2018, 09:44 AM   #23
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Re: Exploitive Behind

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How do you win a larger percentage of the pots? By playing hands that get more than their fair share of equity in a big multi-way pot, and not playing hands that do not.
Which is literally all of your EP opening range. As jdr0317 said, your only job after that is to not to fold too often post flop. The key lesson of the hand is that your strong hands don't mind being either isolated or ganged up on by worse.

Reading back through the thread, AaronW explained all of this in the first reply.
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Old 05-11-2018, 04:33 PM   #24
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Re: Exploitive Behind

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Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
In these situations, almost all of the pots are going to be pretty big.

Which means your basic task is to win a larger percentage of the pots that you enter into than your opponents. The player who does that makes the most money long term.

How do you win a larger percentage of the pots? By playing hands that get more than their fair share of equity in a big multi-way pot, and not playing hands that do not.
Kinda like telling a guy who wants to go to the moon to "just build urself a space shuttle" LMAO. Yea just play better hands then ur opponents and then get sticky post flop in multi way pots....easy money....NOT!!!!! lmao. You need to observe your opponents, while at same time understanding what those observations mean. You should know what a raise means from the old lady in the blue dress...you should know what a check-raise means from the old guy by dealer, etc. Watch people and learn how they play. How many hands do they enter each orbit...this will help you construct preflop ranges. The more often you see them in pot, the wider their range. Also, pay attention to if they loosen up on button. What hands do they donk with? Will they auto Cbet flop after raise? Will they 3 barrel air when AK whiffs? Do they bet Flush or open ended str8 draws? Are they capable of making a good fold? If you can figure out just those few things about how people play you have a huge advantge. You'd be amazed at what you can learn just by paying attention. You also need to understand which hands play well in multiway pots. Good luck!
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Old 05-14-2018, 03:47 PM   #25
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Re: Exploitive Behind

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Kinda like telling a guy who wants to go to the moon to "just build urself a space shuttle" LMAO. Yea just play better hands then ur opponents and then get sticky post flop in multi way pots....easy money....NOT!!!!! lmao. You need to observe your opponents, while at same time understanding what those observations mean. You should know what a raise means from the old lady in the blue dress...you should know what a check-raise means from the old guy by dealer, etc. Watch people and learn how they play. How many hands do they enter each orbit...this will help you construct preflop ranges. The more often you see them in pot, the wider their range. Also, pay attention to if they loosen up on button. What hands do they donk with? Will they auto Cbet flop after raise? Will they 3 barrel air when AK whiffs? Do they bet Flush or open ended str8 draws? Are they capable of making a good fold? If you can figure out just those few things about how people play you have a huge advantge. You'd be amazed at what you can learn just by paying attention. You also need to understand which hands play well in multiway pots. Good luck!
I don't disagree that on the margins, these sorts of reads are useful even in small stakes bingo poker.

But consider this-- making the correct exploitative post-flop play might save you a BB or win you a BB.

Making the correct pre-flop plays can net you a 10BB pot, or save you 2 1/2BBs.

So you have to get pre-flop super-right, and then work on your post-flop reads to get that extra 1BB every once in awhile.
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