live 9 handed Limit... not Omaha.

Tag button opens, only I call in BB with KsJs.

Ad9s5s...I check, he bets......Do you CR or just call?

I have thought about this and have a pretty good idea of what is the right play but I'm not sure. I'll chime in with my thoughts after a few responses. I'll talk to you in a few weeks.

Tag button ought to have a huge range, certainly doesn't need to have an Ace, I c/r.

What am I supposed to do while I wait a few weeks for your thoughts?

If others are as timely as you, it may just be a few day's or hours.

Point well taken.

I c/r too. If you aren’t c/r this, then your c/r range is basically just aces? That said, you are only getting worse hands to fold

What's someone supposed to do w/ small pairs when facing a c/r?

For me it depends on with what non-ace hands this guy could conbet. If they are mostly paires, he could easily put you on a flushdraw or pure "i have ace" bluff.

I c/r.

Seems odd to include KsJs in bucket of hands to chk/c flop here unless I'm missing something.

Thinking through this hand more.

Vs some TAG reg in HUHU or 3max games, there are merits to chk/c flop here with intention of
1). Increase flop chk/c range
2). Increase delay turn c/r range
3). Increase probability to be able to chk/c flop, turn, river light if adjustments by TAG villain involves cbetting flop, turn, river light on Axx flush draw board as BTN pfr.

In my opinion more applicable to HUHU but I'm sure there definitely is a merit to include flop chk/c as an option X% of time on flop with KsJs on that board 9 handed vs BTN open by TAG reg.

I check raise this 100%.

I'm check-calling 100% of my continuing range here, including my good aces. (Villain might or might not know this, but my range is going to be uncapped, since I am flatting 100% preflop.)

I like k/r flop, bet turn, check and puke River UI

Maybe better will fold somewhere along the line.
Also maybe worse draws will call somewhere along the line

I’m trying to think of merits to just calling and I guess if villain likes to double or triple barrel (as well as bluff on flush cards himself),

Then maybe k/c twice UI and re-eval River is at least okay (maybe better) since this hand prolly does have okay showdown

I’m not sure which line is better, but I’m still leaning towards k/r

I've changed my 3-betting philosophy over the years and am now in the "3-bet nothing from BB against button openers" camp. So I'm going to have a pretty wide range.

For that reason (plus a general tendency to play more aggressively out of position), I'm going to end up check-raising a bunch and I probably don't mind betting all streets UI with this hand.

Good question. Assuming we are playing against a tough player I think we need to be a bit stubborn. I'd think we could fold 22's-44's and call the rest.

I wonder how thinly we should be peeling/floating here as well. I really don't know. Should we have a check back range here on the flop?

I've changed to a mixed strategy from a 3 bet nothing strategy. Almost all decent players in my game 3 bet nothing. I think changing it up is a good thing and gives my opponent more to think about. I also don't think I play as well as I should by just calling.

What are you trying to get this guy to fold by 3 barrelling this hand? Are there certain runouts you are targeting?

Should have bet the flop.

A CR won't get much more information since he'll most likely call even with As as a CR in my neck of the woods is used to convey limped AA or 2P or better.

I wouldn't count the pair outs. Betting out would have given much more information since his raise is As or better, and a call would mean a lower pair or even K or Q high, depending upon how AG he really is.

Any hand that's better than K-high.

Obviously, I'm aiming to hit the flush on the river.

This is the sort of situation where I don't really care that much. Right now, I'm in decent shape against his range. But if I miss on the turn, my equity is going to plummet. And then it will plummet again on the river. So if things go well or go poorly, I'm doing a good thing with the hand I've got.

In fact, the "worst" thing would be hitting a K or J because if I don't have a flush on the river, I'm in that space where my hand is decent but it will be hard to know whether it's a value bet without knowing more about villain's calldown tendencies. Would I want to check and induce a bet from a worse hand? Or bet and hope that he calls with that worse hand? But barring those 6 outs, I will be pretty confident about where I stand by the river and my bets will make complete sense.

grunch

I have to ask some additional questions because in the games I play it gets folded around to the button maybe once every 6 hours:

What is a typical button-opener's c-bet% HU?
Do a LOT of hands get folded around to the button in this game?
Do most villains have fairly wide button-open ranges hoping to steal?
One of the few things I actually remember from the brief period of time that I studied short-handed LHE is that there's a school of thought that you essentially never 3-bet from the big blind against a wide button opener. Is that still the prevailing mindset?

Nearly 100% depending on history.
Not in low limit LHE. If you're in a game like that you should leave.
No. If they don't have much they'll often say 'I'll let you chop' and fold.
I rarely 3-bet the BB v. a button open but will on occasion basically on a whim.

The reason that I like a flop c/r is to make a better hand fold. Here's a simple sim:

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

990 trials (Exhaustive)

board: A 9 5

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
Ks Js	55.66%	551	0
8d 8h	44.34%	439	0

It's close and V. will call down bec of the money in the pot if he can put us squarely on our hand but often enough we get a fold and I think that makes the c/r a must and if we don't get a fold we've got outs. If we get called having c/r'd trying to power our way to victory UI doesn't seem like the right thing to do.

I don't really like the combination of never 3 betting preflop and never check raising flop, but I don't feel like hijacking the thread with that discussion. Let's assume that I both have a 3 betting range preflop and a flop check raise range:

I don't 3 bet preflop with 55, A5s, A5o, A9s, A9o, 95s, ATo, A8s, A8o, A7s, A7o, A6s, A6o, nor worse Aces, so I have a decent number of strong hands to check raise the flop with(but I don't check raise all of my Aces vs tags).

My potential bluffs, in order(imo) of profitability relative to check calling:

32ss, 42ss, 43ss, 76ss, 86ss, 87ss, KJss(I 3 bet KQs), KTss, K8ss, K7ss, K6ss, K4ss, K3ss, K2ss, QTss(I 3 bet QJs), Q8ss, Q7ss, Q6ss, Q4ss, Q3ss, Q2ss, JTss, J8ss, J7ss, J6ss, /this is about where I dial back the check raise frequency to <100% vs tags/ 87s(with backdoor diamonds), 86s(backdoor diamonds), 76s(backdoor diamonds), 87o(backdoor spades), 86o(backdoor spades, 76o(backdoor spades), J4ss, J3ss, J2ss, T8ss, T7ss, T6ss, T4ss, T3ss, T2ss, 87o(no backdoors), 86o, 76o, 84ss, 74ss, 64ss, 63ss, 62ss. Naked wheel draws, JTs(backdoor diamonds), QTs(backdoor diamonds). The worse my draw the less often I check raise. If it's not on the list, I never check raise it vs tags.

When btn calls the check raise, I don't bet turn 100%. Reasons for checking:

a) made a weak pair to go along with my draw.
b) turn brings double flushdraw(I check all naked straight draws here as well as no pair no draw)
c) higher straight hits(like an 8 hits turn for example) I no longer bet the weaker straight draws.
d) basically anything that weakens my draw so significantly that I think checking is more profitable, then I check turn.

If called on the turn with KJss?

I check river expecting to win a non zero % of the pot when btn checks some busted draws. I have many many unshowdownable bluffs that I prefer to bet the river with on any runout I can think of.

How wide of an opening range and how loose of a flop peel do you think BTN has here? You block so many of the reasonable flush draws by holding both the K and the J that I'm not sure what else you're thinking you'll see.

Q4ss is most definitely in tag btn range. if not, he's not tag he's tight passive.

Just how profitable do you think bluffing is vs a tag?

edit to list hands: Q2ss, Q3ss, Q6ss, Q8ss, QTss, T8ss, T7ss. I've seen even worse give up on the river, but you get the idea.

My point here is that at *best* you're going to see maybe 7-10 hands here in the check-through range. Holding KJss blocks out perhaps as much as 70% of the hands that would be in the draw-chasing range. So yes, you're winning a non-zero percent of hands when it checks through, but it's a non-zero number that's very close to zero.

I think bluffing is better than not bluffing. If he is calling with 22 when I bet the river with K-high, then I should be completely owning him with my value range.

What sort of 3-bet range do you have here? Being different just to be different isn't a strong rationale for being different.

What types of mistakes do you think you make when you just call?