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Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

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Old 09-11-2017, 12:44 PM   #1
Aaron W.
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Completing in the small blind

There's a bit of discussion about completing with weak hands in the small blind in another thread:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...-i-do-1685811/

I'm curious... how big does the pot need to be for you to complete everything? Let's say you're sitting at a full 10-person table and there are 8 limpers to you in the SB. Do you complete or do you still look at your cards first? (We will assume a non-crazy BB for this discussion, as being raised by BB certainly changes things.)

Theoretically, the pot can become large enough preflop that it's correct to complete with anything *even if* you suck at postflop play, the overlay is good enough that you can be profitable.

I think I'd complete almost anything with 5 limpers (13:1), and I'll complete any two suited at 4 limpers.
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:55 PM   #2
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Re: Completing in the small blind

You look at your cards to see if you want to raise w/ 7+ limps. Playing ATC. It's situational, but when it get to be 7+ limps, then you can definitely at play 100%. You want to know your direct odds of flopping two pair, and flopping trips, flopping a straight draw, flush draw, gutshot, etc. to make the judgment calls, since your next decision will be on the flop.
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:56 PM   #3
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Re: Completing in the small blind

13:1 is a number stuck in my head for "any two" based on someone adding up the probs of flopping various outcomes a long long time ago.

I think it's worth pointing out that it's for half of a bet. In proportion, our implieds are bigger because of it.

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Old 09-11-2017, 01:20 PM   #4
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Re: Completing in the small blind

I'm completing ATC at 13:1 but to be clear I always look because I might raise.

But to be honest at the bottom of barrel a lot of EVs are clustered together. There's a huge difference between AA and KK but barely a difference between 72o and 82o. It's really hard to pinpoint which offsuit deuces are worth it and not worth it at 11:1 or 13:1 or 17:1 because the errors in assumptions you make in postflop play grossly outweogh the errors in EV.
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Old 09-11-2017, 02:25 PM   #5
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Re: Completing in the small blind

I tend to be 13:1 from the SB and 11:1 from the BB. I favor slightly more selectivity from the SB because

1) We're always going to be in the worst position
2) The BB is left to act and will be raising a very non-negligible amount.
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Old 09-11-2017, 02:59 PM   #6
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Re: Completing in the small blind

I complete everything and don't mind folding if the BB raises.
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Old 09-11-2017, 03:21 PM   #7
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Re: Completing in the small blind

I fold the trash hands bec I don't need the aggravation. IMR, where are we going w/ hands like 10-2o? But at least I'm not Tommy Angelo who won't toss in a red bird in a 2/3 blind structure getting 25:1 or w/e it is when everyone has limped in.
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Old 09-11-2017, 05:55 PM   #8
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Re: Completing in the small blind

I complete ATC in a 2-3 blind situation getting 8 to 1 to a single limp, unless I think she's limp-rr'ing or the BB is raising a lot.

But if it's a 2-1 small blind, I always have a folding range, even 9 handed. The RIO's are just way too high with crap hands in the worst position at the table with a multi-way pot.
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Old 09-11-2017, 10:58 PM   #9
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Re: Completing in the small blind

IMO, whether to complete or not is not only dependent on the immediate odds/number of players. Today, MP fish limped, I completed 62o in SB, BB checked.

Flop: A93

I bet, both players folded.

For sure, I bluff way more than the average player, and this factors heavily into my SB completion %.
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Old 09-12-2017, 12:39 AM   #10
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Re: Completing in the small blind

With a two-chip/three chip blind structure, I complete with any two cards even versus a single caller, and am happy to fold my trash hands to a BB raise.

Which I guess makes my folding Q5o getting 13:1 for my call to be a mistake.
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Old 09-12-2017, 02:36 AM   #11
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Re: Completing in the small blind

You've certainly got more gamble than me.
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Old 09-12-2017, 02:48 AM   #12
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Re: Completing in the small blind

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You've certainly got more gamble than me.
....
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Old 09-12-2017, 04:42 AM   #13
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Re: Completing in the small blind

Quote:
Originally Posted by SetofJacks View Post
I complete everything and don't mind folding if the BB raises.
I don't get this logic; if BB raises and it's called around to you, aren't you now getting the same odds you were the first time around?
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Old 09-12-2017, 04:44 AM   #14
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Re: Completing in the small blind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain R View Post
IMO, whether to complete or not is not only dependent on the immediate odds/number of players. Today, MP fish limped, I completed 62o in SB, BB checked.

Flop: A93

I bet, both players folded.

For sure, I bluff way more than the average player, and this factors heavily into my SB completion %.
I thought you were known to have a crazy action gambler image.
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:52 AM   #15
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Re: Completing in the small blind

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Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
I don't get this logic; if BB raises and it's called around to you, aren't you now getting the same odds you were the first time around?
Yes, but now BB's range is different than the first time around.
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Old 09-12-2017, 11:29 AM   #16
Aaron W.
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Re: Completing in the small blind

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
I don't get this logic; if BB raises and it's called around to you, aren't you now getting the same odds you were the first time around?
Maybe your immediate odds, but your implied odds (including reverse-implied) are way down. Putting in a half of a small bet to flop something awesome is different from putting in a full SB to flop something awesome because of how much more ground you have to make up from that initial investment.

That being said, I'm not sure if I'm disciplined enough that I would do that, and the frequency of such a situation is probably quite small, so it's probably not a disaster.
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Old 09-12-2017, 12:00 PM   #17
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Re: Completing in the small blind

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Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
With a two-chip/three chip blind structure, I complete with any two cards even versus a single caller, and am happy to fold my trash hands to a BB raise.

Which I guess makes my folding Q5o getting 13:1 for my call to be a mistake.
You basically do the same thing I do, Alan, and it's not a mistake.

Here's the difference:

Hand 1, 15-30 limit.

Single limper, we complete Q5o, BB checks.

Hand 2, 20-40 limit.

3 limpers, we complete Q5o, BB checks.

Now what is the probability that our Q5 is dominated in Hand 1, versus in Hand 2?
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Old 09-12-2017, 12:02 PM   #18
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Re: Completing in the small blind

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Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
Maybe your immediate odds, but your implied odds (including reverse-implied) are way down. Putting in a half of a small bet to flop something awesome is different from putting in a full SB to flop something awesome because of how much more ground you have to make up from that initial investment.

That being said, I'm not sure if I'm disciplined enough that I would do that, and the frequency of such a situation is probably quite small, so it's probably not a disaster.
I'm glad someone mentioned discipline as a reason these hands get played or folded!

And yes, "I'm getting 11 to 1 on a call" should very well play out a differently in a raised pot, especially when the raiser has a strong range.
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Old 09-12-2017, 01:37 PM   #19
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Re: Completing in the small blind

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
I don't get this logic; if BB raises and it's called around to you, aren't you now getting the same odds you were the first time around?
Aaron and cali answered for me.
Sometimes I won't complete if BB is a LAG and understands that raising like 40% is probably optimal.
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:11 PM   #20
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Re: Completing in the small blind

Does anyone have any recommendations for when there's 2-4 limpers and its on us in the SB?

So now there's between 7-11 SB and we have stuff like A6o, K5o, Q7o, 86o. I tend to fold all this but I get mixed opinions. Some regs tell me "I'll call 72o for 10:1". What's the best play?

What should my SB completion range look like for under 4 limpers?
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:00 PM   #21
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Re: Completing in the small blind

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What should my SB completion range look like for under 4 limpers?
There are no hard rules about this. Obviously, the fewer limpers, the strong hand you want to have. Suited hands play better than unsuited hands. As your range gets wider, you need to bluff with more hands to capture your equity with the weaker part of your range. You can't just expect to have the best hand at showdown.

But the issue you need to be thinking about is your ability to play postflop out of position. If you're going to spew money postflop, you shouldn't play as many hands.

One place to look for getting started is to think about your BB hands. Limping from SB and checking from BB should be very similar in feel. Take a look at those hands and see which ones are profitable for more than .5 SB (ignoring the blinds). Those hands would be hands that you can consider adding first.
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Old 09-12-2017, 10:58 PM   #22
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Re: Completing in the small blind

Can we move beyond pot odds and IO/RIO please?

Y'all are missing that villain's preflop ranges, postflop tendencies, and relative skill are huge to determine whether we complete or fold. SetofJacks has it right:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SetofJacks View Post
Sometimes I won't complete if BB is a LAG and understands that raising like 40% is probably optimal.
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Old 09-12-2017, 11:00 PM   #23
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Re: Completing in the small blind

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
I thought you were known to have a crazy action gambler image.
Some people think I'm nitty, some people think I'm aggro-loose.
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Old 09-12-2017, 11:09 PM   #24
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Re: Completing in the small blind

There's a pretty good 'I play my sb like I like my women' joke in there somewhere
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Old 09-12-2017, 11:28 PM   #25
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Re: Completing in the small blind

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Some people think I'm nitty, some people think I'm aggro-loose.
The nits think you are aggro-loose, and the LAGs think you are a nit?

Last edited by AlanBostick; 09-12-2017 at 11:28 PM. Reason: That's probably a terrific image to have.
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