8 handed 4/8 half kill 5bet cap (kill player pays 6 and hand plays 6/12 if player wins holding leg-up or kill button) this hand is playing 6 players Hero does not have the Leg-Up

UTG folds, UTG+1 LP calls, LJ LP calls, HJ folds, Button LAG calls, SB LNeutral raises, Hero has TT and 3!, everyone calls to SB who 4!, Hero caps, all Call

Flop (Pot 23.5SB after rake and promo drop, rake is capped)
KJT two clubs
SB Bets, Hero Raises, all Call

Turn (pot 16.75BB)
3 club
Sb Stop'N'Go, all Call

River (pot 21.75BB)
8 non club
SB Bets, Hero???

Can we ever fold here or is the pot simply too large? If we do call, what do we do if there is a raise? Obviously we can fold to a 3!

I would raise the turn. His turn donk could be AcA or AcK. Was the Kc on the board? Do you have the Tc? Would he 4 bet JJ's pre? If he had a monster on the flop you would think he would just jam it. There shouldn't be too many flush combos in his range depending on what cards are clubs on the board. You have to raise and protect/get value from your hand multiway. The club is a bit scary with all of the cold callers behind but there are many other ways these players could have connected to this board. At least you got outs against a turned flush.

As played there is no way you can fold the river.

I assume you meant "can't" fold to a 3.

You have to have solid information to not raise turn, River call all day .

We do not block clubs. The K is a club if I remember correctly.

Yeah you're probably right about the 3!. I just hate facing a 3! here. This is one of those places where I just need to remember...

Do not fold on the river in large pots with any reasonably strong piece in small stakes games!

And yes turn raise is probably best. Honestly I got monsters under the bed syndrome in this hand. I know it's terrible but I actually folded the river to the lead bet from the SB. The day before I had built about 5 huge pots just like this one to get to the river and lose. So I just had that snake bitten feeling and somehow rationalized a fold.

And yes I know how terrible the fold is. I was just looking for rationalization. Let's call it a little forum therapy. I needed a good tongue lashing to remind myself to never fold this again.

Thanks

Fwiw, this stop and go play that villain makes on the turn is usually a hand that wants to see a safe turn card. It is hardly ever a monster. Monsters like KK, JJ, and AQ don't worry about the turn card. They just jam the flop most of the time. Villain's most likely hands are AK and AA. But since he doesn't sound like an especially good player, he can also have weird stuff like QQ, KQ, or even AJ. A turn donk in this spot is not scary at all.

An extremely important concept in LHE is "Don't bloat and fold". Building a huge pot and folding even the most marginal hands is almost always terrible and is a huge leak.

The river is a raise if you somehow make it there without raising the turn. You should never be folding this river with any of your pre-flop 5-betting range.

How can we ever fold a set in a massive pot like this? People do wild **** in massive pots way too often to not find a showdown here.

By the way we have to be good here about 4.5% of the time. If he can ever bet here with worse (aces, weird two pair, ak, kq) then you have to call. I find it hard to believe he’d stop and go with a straight or set and the board partially blocks flush combos (also not many flush combos he can have in a five bet pot). Smells like aa or ak with the ace of clubs.

I don’t really mind not raising the river since I hate life when I get 3b! and people behind can call with all types of hands. The turn is a great spot to raise and try to make people make bad folds or get value against flush draws and straight draws. Also if 3bet we can still improve.

I wouldn't cap pre, you're pretty much set mining with this many players in the hand. Then I'd call flop with intention to raise safe turns and face draws with 2 bets on the turn.

It's also completely insane to consider folding a set on this river.

In this big, capped, multiway pot I do not think there is merit to calling the flop. We should get value now when people are going to take two to the face with all kinds of worse hands and before a cooler card comes that might freeze the action. And at 4/8, I do not think we are going to make someone make an incorrect fold against a hand like ours by making them face two bets on the turn, assuming the action cooperates with us. The corollary to that is that you sometimes get people to call two big bets on the turn instead of two small bets on the flop, but often people just fold, or the board comes out bad, and you never get to 4! the flop if you don't raise.

OP -- Just a bit of jargon: the term "stop n' go" (coined by Greg Raymer I think?) means, in no limit, to call a preflop raise out of position with the intention of then going all in on 100% of flops rather than reraising all in pre, with the goal of eking out some fold equity. Here, the SB just "donked" or "lead into you" on the turn.

I think of the two as having reasonable distinction to use them even in limit. In this situation the bettor was the one that bet first on the flop and then closed the betting in a multiway pot and then bet the next street. I think having the distinction is valid as calling this a stop'n'go which IMO makes the play different than a standard donk where he x/c the flop and should be used. But w/e either way he did what he did even though I think the potential strength of his hand is less when he does this play then a straight donk from some sort of cold call in these games. Just IMO.

I like the 3 bet pre unless sb is very tight. Tt has plenty of equity against four limpers and one raiser and occasionally one of the limpers folds

I don't even consider doing anything else with TT PF tbh. The hand prints against the whole table full of loose recs and the cap is automatic once he 4! Any hand I'm willing to 3! in this game gets auto capped if it comes back to me.