Question re: hand 4

You mention that villain 3 can recognize that the Q is a bad card for us and will likely bluff. How much of a difference in profit do you expect with a b/c line vs c/c to induce? Put another way, do you think we get bluffraised often enough on the river vs this opponent to lead, or will we make more with a check to get him to take shots with hands he otherwise wouldn't?

i think i really need to have a good read of this thread before i can reply but in the meantime this bump will have to do.

Nice post nerdking. I am jealous of this article, not jealous that I didn't write it because I couldn't have, jealous because I would have liked to have it as an original Digest article. Oh well maybe next time

nerdking this is a good post.

i'm going to respond to one hand at a time.

first, though, just to clarify - these are all vs button raises, correct?

second thing - i think it should be emphasized (esp to noobs) that these types of plays will be very bad/spewy against a lot of players at the lower limits. i think the fundamentals are more important to master first. that said once the fundamentals are mastered these types of things are good to learn. sort of like learning how to dribble with one hand before going between the legs.


re: flop of A62 vs tag-nit.

if you CR this flop with 97o (a fine play vs a steal range imo) and he calls i think you can c/f the turn UI. these guys arent calling your CR with KQ. they either have a big Ace and are going to raise your turn bet, or have some PP that they arent folding. id just give up.


vs a LAGTAG

again i wouldnt immediately say a flop CR is bad. after all you are near the bottom of your range here with little to no SD value. against this opponent, however, i would be more apt to fire the turn after CRing the flop, and then firing the river UI. it depends on image considerations. LAGTAGs dont like to give up on the flop to one bet with much of anything.

i also think just c/fing here is a fine option. if you calldown here with king high i wouldnt worry about being run over just becaues you fold one of worst hands you can have in this spot (equity-wise).

I sort of like what Don Juan was saying about play from the BB when faced with a button raise. I like just calling with most hands even if I feel I'm likely ahead, since I get an automatic c/r if I want to take it and save a bet if I don't like the flop. But, I would be inclined to 3-bet a KQ since it's easier to represent an A, when you 3 bet pre. It's nice to hear some different ideas/ viewpoints. GL at the tables

sorry I've been away from the thread folks, I've been dealing with new laptop issues/still being sick with a cold/getting more tattoo work done/going out with women/AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL, PLAYING POKER EVERY DAY.

need sleep, will respond to everyone later this morning.

donjuan: 1. In first example what range do u put the players on when they open on btn. With that range what of hands range do you think will fold to your c.r on flop containing an ace.

part of the conceit for the article was that I was dealing with each player type and each of them had a defined attempt to steal percent (which was their range) as part of their profile.

2. Against aggressive players what % do u think will re-bluff on the turn.

That's a very player-dependant answer. Pay attention to the guys who are aggressive and who look like they'll make moves. Generally the ones who seem to make the crazy, most illogical moves are the ones I am most inclined to call down light against.

3. Do u think it worth to risk 2 Big bet most of the time to win 3.5 Big bet on a pure bluff.

Again, it's player dependant and that's why I created three player archetypes for this article as proxies for situations a player might encounter at the table. In a game where everyone is a tight reg, risking 2 to win 3 is a winning play sometimes.

4. If you say that you will 3 bet most of the time pre flop on the BB with strong Ax. There not a lot of combo of good hands for you to be C.r the flop with when there an ace right?

In limit holdem Ahigh is a showdownable hand and often beats weaker Ahigh and Khigh hands that villain may show down with. Also, it's not a matter that "most of the time I will 3bet with Ahi broadway" it's more a matter of "some of the time I will 3bet with most of my Ahigh broadway (and ALWAYS AK and AQ in headsup situations purely for value)"

d00nut-Question re: hand 4

You mention that villain 3 can recognize that the Q is a bad card for us and will likely bluff. How much of a difference in profit do you expect with a b/c line vs c/c to induce? Put another way, do you think we get bluffraised often enough on the river vs this opponent to lead, or will we make more with a check to get him to take shots with hands he otherwise wouldn't?

I think if we have an aggressive image but have been betfolding scary rivers, a good lagtag will make notes on our tendency and attempt to exploit that tendency. Checking that river gives our opponent to play perfectly by only betting when he has a hand that beats us knowing that we'll call and checking behind all of his weaker hands. Please note that I don't think anyone playing below 10/20+ online is probably pulling this play off and checking to induce is a perfectly acceptable play on this river.

Bona-thanks for the kind words

Kit-i am used to auto-2barreling a checkraise bluff, and your point is correct here. On a board this dry against a fit or fold opponent, if he calls our flop checkraise he has "fit" and we should "fold". The rest are smart points.

Sect7g-with non-made hands we're burning a lot of our equity by not 3betting the top of our Ahigh range. Are you saying your wouldn't 3bet AKo from the bb to a button open? HU how different is AQs to AKo in terms of pf equity? By not 3betting you're just burning money.

nerdking, I really don't hate Sect7g's plan or line with AK AQ and dont' think its burning money to not 3 bet it vs btn raise.

Think about if your always c/r the flop everytime or very high % of the time the money in the pot is going to be the same as if you 3 pre. However if I 3 pre flop most players are going to put me on 77+ A2+ and any 20 in BJ. And I think the biggest part of that range most people put you on is Ax, which makes it hard play a lot of flop.

Conversely if you just always call pre you can represent a much much wider range of hands with your flop c/r and probably get paid and extra bet or when you have him dominated.

Assuming your opponent is an expert player who never spews, your argument has a lot going for it. A decent number of 3/6 opponents cap wide in position. You're giving up a big bet with a dominating hand vs. them; that seems like burning money, imo.

Balance only against those who require it.

I would 3 bet it maybe %25 percent of the time to stop predictablility, but as for this not putting in value it makes no difference because you get a free c/r on the flop if you want it. Also you could wait till the turn and get an extra small bet if your against an aggresive opponent. But either way your AK-AQ will make money in the BB to a stealer.
Still I don't know why you don't up your tables. Yeah your winrate may be cut in half.... but you could be on 3 times more tables so thats more money by 50%. Plus you will get 3 times the FPP'S which is a lot in terms of profit. GL to you and I won't miss playing you since I have just recently retired from Limit FR.

Very nice Nerd.

But instead of making posts like this you should seriously be writting articles for the 2+2 Magazine.

But by MMT you can slow your progress of moving up. When he moves up to say 5/T he will be making a better hourly than MMT 2/4.

Also not everyone is interested in being FPP grinders/rakeback whores. Not that im saying theres anything wrong with doing that, just not some peoples idea of playing poker.

Also nice thread nerdking

Bump. Wonderful OP, great discussion.

A friend mentioned nerdking's milestone post, and I realized it was in the archived version of the forum. Some of the links are dead, but in some of its former glory...

What happened to Bart Hansen anyway? Is he still BG's son?

Bart Hanson is alive and well, playing NLHE at the Bike and Hustler, and hoping to move out of LA soon.