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Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

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Old 09-08-2017, 07:11 PM   #1
DonkeyOnTilt
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Bad flop, how to continue?

8/16 half-kill.

Good table, some loose/terrible fish, some weak/tight nits. My image is very good. Folds to me in MP and I have TT and raise. Folds to BB who 3-bets. I 4-bet and he just calls, electing not to cap. I have no read on this player as he just sat down and I've never seen him before.

Flop comes AK6 rainbow and he checks to me. I bet and he calls. Turn is a 5 bringing no flush possibilities. He checks again, now what?
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Old 09-08-2017, 07:35 PM   #2
dead..money
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Re: Bad flop, how to continue?

Don't cap
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Old 09-08-2017, 07:38 PM   #3
Bob148
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Re: Bad flop, how to continue?

I'd check back and call the river, hoping to see 99.

Also I wouldn't 4 bet preflop.
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Old 09-08-2017, 07:57 PM   #4
Aaron W.
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Re: Bad flop, how to continue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkeyOnTilt View Post
8/16 half-kill.

Good table, some loose/terrible fish, some weak/tight nits. My image is very good. Folds to me in MP and I have TT and raise. Folds to BB who 3-bets. I 4-bet and he just calls, electing not to cap. I have no read on this player as he just sat down and I've never seen him before.
Don't cap. You've got position and you have a table read that counter-indicates capping.

What's BB's hand range? You can't imagine that you're doing well against it.

Quote:
Flop comes AK6 rainbow and he checks to me. I bet and he calls. Turn is a 5 bringing no flush possibilities. He checks again, now what?
Ask yourself whether you think QQ or JJ would reasonably peel the flop and fold the turn. If so, bet. If not, check. You can call a river bet or you can fold. The hand range I envision (given the flop call) turns this into a pretty clear fold. You've got to be hoping for 99 or QJs with the backdoor flush draw, or that your opponent just went crazy (which happens sometimes).
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Old 09-08-2017, 09:37 PM   #5
SetofJacks
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Re: Bad flop, how to continue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dead..money View Post
Don't cap
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
I'd check back and call the river, hoping to see 99.

Also I wouldn't 4 bet preflop.
+2

Minor nitpick to those saying don't cap though: this room has a 5! cap with no cap HU.
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Old 09-09-2017, 12:02 AM   #6
ninefingershuffle
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Re: Bad flop, how to continue?

Aaron w. Is right on. Figure out what they would do with large pairs and act accordingly. As a default, given pot size, I'd bet again
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Old 09-09-2017, 12:26 AM   #7
DonkeyOnTilt
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Re: Bad flop, how to continue?

I think it was pretty clear that I had no reads and his range was the average 8/16 player. Also, as SetofJacks can confirm my standard is to just call the 3-bet pre but I was feeling it and wanted to continue to control the table so I put in the 4th expecting to be checked to on every flop.
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Old 09-09-2017, 12:33 AM   #8
Aaron W.
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Re: Bad flop, how to continue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkeyOnTilt View Post
I think it was pretty clear that I had no reads and his range was the average 8/16 player.
This is fine. What do you think of the average 8/16 player?

Quote:
Also, as SetofJacks can confirm my standard is to just call the 3-bet pre but I was feeling it and wanted to continue to control the table so I put in the 4th expecting to be checked to on every flop.
And this benefits you how?
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Old 09-09-2017, 01:41 AM   #9
DonkeyOnTilt
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Re: Bad flop, how to continue?

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This is fine. What do you think of the average 8/16 player?



And this benefits you how?
It clearly didn't as I'm not usually in this spot and wasn't sure what to do, hence the thread creation.
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Old 09-09-2017, 02:14 AM   #10
Aaron W.
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Re: Bad flop, how to continue?

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Originally Posted by DonkeyOnTilt View Post
It clearly didn't as I'm not usually in this spot and wasn't sure what to do, hence the thread creation.
Well, it's actually more theoretical than that. Consider:

(1) Hero raises in MP, BB 3-bets, Hero calls. Flop comes XXX, and BB bets...
(2) Hero raises in MP, BB 3-bets, Hero 4-bets, BB calls. Flop comes XXX, and BB checks...

In both of these situations, you're getting to the turn for the same price. But in one situation, you've invested fewer bets and have the choice to get away cheaply.

Furthermore, there are two things that can go pretty wrong for you if you 4-bet:
* BB 5-bets (apparently, you're playing at a bet and four raise casino)
* BB donks

These both suck terribly.

You also put yourself in a position to really polarize your range by checking behind on the flop. Compare the hand range you have when you check behind on the flop after 4-betting compared to your range if you simply 3-bet and call the flop bet. Your hands (on average) should be stronger getting to the turn even if you're raising your strong hands on the flop. Not to mention that you can just fold crappy flops like AKx and save yourself a bet.

I cannot identify a single advantage to 4-betting with the hope of possibly taking a "free" turn card. There are no upsides that I see, but I can identify clear downsides.
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Old 09-09-2017, 02:34 AM   #11
DonkeyOnTilt
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Re: Bad flop, how to continue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
Well, it's actually more theoretical than that. Consider:

(1) Hero raises in MP, BB 3-bets, Hero calls. Flop comes XXX, and BB bets...
(2) Hero raises in MP, BB 3-bets, Hero 4-bets, BB calls. Flop comes XXX, and BB checks...

In both of these situations, you're getting to the turn for the same price. But in one situation, you've invested fewer bets and have the choice to get away cheaply.

Furthermore, there are two things that can go pretty wrong for you if you 4-bet:
* BB 5-bets (apparently, you're playing at a bet and four raise casino)
* BB donks

These both suck terribly.

You also put yourself in a position to really polarize your range by checking behind on the flop. Compare the hand range you have when you check behind on the flop after 4-betting compared to your range if you simply 3-bet and call the flop bet. Your hands (on average) should be stronger getting to the turn even if you're raising your strong hands on the flop. Not to mention that you can just fold crappy flops like AKx and save yourself a bet.

I cannot identify a single advantage to 4-betting with the hope of possibly taking a "free" turn card. There are no upsides that I see, but I can identify clear downsides.
You don't have to convince me. Like I said, I never 4-bet heads up. I had a couple beers and was running over the table so I guess I was feeling it and made a non-standard play. I took note of this hand because as I was playing it I told myself this is why I don't ever do this because I wasn't sure what to do. I appreciate the time you took to post this but this specific content is not a lesson I need to be taught. Honestly I guess this post is ultimately a waste of time because I never 4-bet heads up again on the evening even though I continued to run the table and drink more beer. I touched the hot oven and got burned, lesson learned. Sorry!
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Old 09-09-2017, 12:55 PM   #12
Jon_locke
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Re: Bad flop, how to continue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkeyOnTilt View Post
but I was feeling it and wanted to continue to control the table so I put in the 4th expecting to be checked to on every flop.
whats the value of having it checked to us on every flop when the flop comes out and we post on 2+2 how to continue?

FWIW, i think every response is wrong as played. People never consider it an option but checking back flop and folding turn will likely make the most money by far.
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Old 09-09-2017, 04:06 PM   #13
DonkeyOnTilt
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Re: Bad flop, how to continue?

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Originally Posted by Jon_locke View Post
whats the value of having it checked to us on every flop when the flop comes out and we post on 2+2 how to continue?

FWIW, i think every response is wrong as played. People never consider it an option but checking back flop and folding turn will likely make the most money by far.
This is interesting and I kinda like it. Like i said, I was lost in the hand because most of the numerous mistakes I make stem from a lack of aggression, not too much.

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Old 09-11-2017, 05:31 PM   #14
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Re: Bad flop, how to continue?

I agree c back flop fold turn has a lot of merit. you are crushed by the flop and it makes no sense for vil to bluff into you on this line so he'd have to be a genius to do this with 99

regardless, this is the ideal hand to combo count and do math. List his hand range and count combos. Split into ratio of hands you beat and hands you don't, compare to the odds you're getting from the pot on the next bet and decide if there's value or not.

I think it's going to lead you to, no value, check turn, fold river. Technically you'd need to combo count again the river but your hand looks like a bluff catcher on this line so there's no reason to believe he's going to try with any meaningful frequency
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