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B&M Table Selection B&M Table Selection

10-23-2008 , 08:05 PM
I've been playing live LHE for about 1.5 years now. I have tended to stick to my first seat. After some help from others (thanks Frond) I have been much more active in seat selection. I think I need some help in table selection. How do you guys do this? If table is missing bad players do you just ask for change? Do you sweep around the cardroom looking for good 'uns?
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10-23-2008 , 10:43 PM
I try to go for tables that are loud & laughing, generally having a good time. Usually that means a lot of loose action, which promotes bad play. If I have a choice of limit tables (which is rare in Indiana where I mostly play), I'll take the the louder one.
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10-23-2008 , 11:07 PM
If you have been playing at certain rooms for a while you start to recognize players that you want to be with at their tables, no matter what seat you get. That is one way.

If you don't recognize players, Scotty's rec is really good.

Walk around and look at the size of the pots, look for players with lots of chips in front of them. Usually at low limits this doesn't necessarly mean a great player but more often an active one and an action table.

Look for players that have alchoholic drinks on their trays next to them.

Dont stay at the same table too long if the pots aren't getting that big. Give it some time but don't wait and wait a long time. That said, there are those times when a table is lame for like 30 mins and all of sudden one player comes along and changes everything.

Your'e doing great BTW. I think that you know the math invovled wih LHE as good or better than most on this forum. Bedda than I do
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10-24-2008 , 03:11 AM
I use about 5 methods for table selecting primarily:

1. Scout regulars. Sit at the table with the most confirmed "big ones". There are only about 10 people who meet the definition of "big one" in my game.

2. Scout regulars. Avoid the tricky lags who hate me. There are about 5 people who fit this description.

3. Evaluate my table. If it's far below the average goodness I would expect, change blindly.

4. Watch a hand at a distance and determine the general pot-size/aggression.

5. Sit with Captain R to make life less boring.

Admittedly I usually have exactly 3 tables to work with, so it's pretty easy for me.
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10-24-2008 , 09:01 AM
When I get to the cardroom, while I am waiting to get a seat, I usually take a quick look to see which table I would like to be at. After I get a seat, I evalueate my seat, and my table, if they are satisfactory, I stay put. Especially if I have a good seat in my game. Whenever I take a break, I usually wander by the other tables that I might play at, and take a quick look at them, if they look interesting, I put my name on the table change list.

One other thing to watch, if your table is not good, a lot of times other players will be on the table change list first, then you should watch the sign up lists, and when someone leaves your table, move into a seat that might be advantageous if the new player is bad.
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10-24-2008 , 09:23 AM
Don't forget seat selection in this. If you're in the bad seat at an OK table, you're still in a bad spot. If there is a lot of turn over in your games, you should be able to change seats in a reasonable amount of time. If everyone there is glued to a chair, table change and take your chances.

In general, loose passive players are big donators. The big pot theory is fine; usually you get mounds of chips in the middle from bad play. OTOH, if all the good players are flocking to the action game, I'd prefer to sit with a table full of people who play loose passive PF and turn in to weak tigtht players post flop. Chances are, the "main game" is very profitable; however, 3 great LAGTAGs abusing 4 decent LAGs might not be as profitable as you think.

I want a table where people are making mistakes. If my first table isn't pretty good, I'd take breaks and scout the other tables. Being a regular is a huge leg up. Sometimes the dealer or the floor will help you out. Some regulars will tell you what the good games are. Being a nice human being helps here; angry jerk doesn't get good help.

Whatever you do, don't get mad at a bunch of decent players because you took some beats. Thinking, "I know this is a tough table, but I can beat these guys" and trying to grind back to breakeven is -EV. If they're only making small mistakes (or no mistakes), you're only going to win money via luck. If you want to play vs. the best to learn to play better, fine. Otherwise, if you're mad/stuck make an honest assessment; if there aren't people giving money away, find a new table. Get on the list early. You can always say "no thank you" when you come up.
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10-24-2008 , 02:29 PM
I prefer to sit at tables where my opponents are loose-passive and never check-raise, so given a choice I try to sit at the table with the fewest Asians.
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10-24-2008 , 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by PokrLikeItsProse
I prefer to sit at tables where my opponents are loose-passive and never check-raise, so given a choice I try to sit at the table with the fewest Asians.
Not all Asian players are LAGs. I know a number of loose-passive Asian players.
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10-24-2008 , 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by mikeca
Not all Asian players are LAGs. I know a number of loose-passive Asian players.
Well, yeah. I'm of Asian descent myself and I am a tight and almost nitty player (the sort who folds ace-rag a ton in limped multiway pots). Mike Caro wrote that there were two main types of Asian players: the loose gambler and the tight, competent player.
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10-24-2008 , 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by PokrLikeItsProse
I prefer to sit at tables where my opponents are loose-aggressive and check-raise liberally, so given a choice I try to sit at the table with the most Asians and loud fat white guys.
I like how our approaches are completely opposite.
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10-24-2008 , 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Scary_Tiger
I like how our approaches are completely opposite.
depends how i'm running

if well, bring on the make gamboool

if poorly, give me the guys who fold

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10-24-2008 , 11:12 PM
Most importantly, I want opponents who are predictable. If you have static preflop ranges for calling and raising, if you always bluff your missed draws, if you always fastplay or always slowplay your flopped sets, I feel like I have an edge against you. The players who give me the most fits are the ones who are obviously aware and give me mucho respect if we get it heads up but, whether intentional or not, knock me off a relatively weak best hand by being overaggressive in a protected pot.
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10-25-2008 , 03:02 AM
Honestly, I hardly ever table change or seat change. Unless you're a pro playing for a living (in which case, maximizing your hourly is probably your highest priority), I really think it's more productive to play in whatever game you're in, in whatever seat you're in.

This forces you to play in uncomfortable situations, in all kinds of table conditions and table dynamics, with LAGs on your left, LAGs on your right, tight-passives on your left or on your right, and I honestly think it forces you to try harder to figure out how to best maximize in every possible situation.

Unless you feel you're -EV at a table, I think it's worth playing. Your short term results are not going to be as good, but I think your poker skillz will improve faster and be more complete in the long run. Besides, games tend to redistribute themselves naturally. At tough tables, good players will table change. At good tables, the bad players bust out to the sharks and get replaced by better players.

I've learned more playing with good players than I ever did playing against bad players. But I dunno, my goal in poker isn't to make money. My enjoyment in poker comes from getting better at it. Money is just a byproduct.

OK, enough preaching. That said, I do prefer playing with other good players like Jesse because it's more fun to B.S. with people who have a similar mindset.

Last edited by Captain R; 10-25-2008 at 03:09 AM.
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10-25-2008 , 11:46 AM
Mwette-that 4/8 table I played on with you yesterday was pretty goot. You had a great seat on the left of that kid who pretty much only played 2 red cards, 2 black cards or a hand with one of each. I only saw him fold his hand 2 times in 2 hours PF and he always coldcalled anything. A seat opened on my right and you took it which is okay but I would have stayed where you were, on the left of that ATC kid. When I sat with you he had 3+racks in front of him. After you left he got swelted, melted and he was felted.

As a side note Mwette, did you happen to notice his semi-angle shooting? He would take a stack of chips out like he was going to raise to see what my initial reaction was going to be. A few times after I had bet into him like on the turn, he would grab a stack of chips quickly as if he was going to pop it. He then would grab the chips and quickly slide out his stack as if to raise and leave his hand there for a few extra seconds to see what my reaction wa going to be. I then put out a raise(too quickly)and look down and see that he only called my bet. He did this twice to me and I was about to call him on it but he was giving out money so I didn't bother. Kind of my fault for not taking my time to watch "pretend raises" & then act. He also did the "quickly put out the bet out of turn to let you know I am calling you but I am not betting" thing. He did this with his draws or weak hands so the other player before him to act would just check his hand. Lame. He did this for free cards a few times.
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10-25-2008 , 12:40 PM
Yea. That guy was playing very loose, but he was also betting/raising lightly. He also limped KK UTG, bet 33 down to the river w/ lots of overs and slow-played his sets. I kept trying to isolate with TPGK but people behind were not buying it. It wasn't working for me. I had to try something else. In 5 hours I won like 3 hands.
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10-25-2008 , 01:36 PM
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I had to try something else. In 5 hours I won like 3 hands
.

Table change
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10-25-2008 , 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Frond
Table change
agree
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10-25-2008 , 05:02 PM
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Table change
I was talking to Scarmiglio a few weeks back on how we can be at a table getting good cards, playing well etc but we are really stuck. Our image can be just shot. Players start to think more which can be bad and can actually start playing better vs you and perhaps taking more shots against you as well.

You did take some breaks though which is smart.

Too much content here. I'll fix that.

How about those wacky new chairs they are getting at HG?
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10-28-2008 , 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Frond
You had a great seat on the left of that kid who pretty much only played 2 red cards, 2 black cards or a hand with one of each.
LOL.
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03-30-2010 , 04:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL
Don't forget seat selection in this. If you're in the bad seat at an OK table, you're still in a bad spot. If there is a lot of turn over in your games, you should be able to change seats in a reasonable amount of time. If everyone there is glued to a chair, table change and take your chances.

In general, loose passive players are big donators. The big pot theory is fine; usually you get mounds of chips in the middle from bad play. OTOH, if all the good players are flocking to the action game, I'd prefer to sit with a table full of people who play loose passive PF and turn in to weak tight players post flop. Chances are, the "main game" is very profitable; however, 3 great LAGTAGs abusing 4 decent LAGs might not be as profitable as you think.

I want a table where people are making mistakes. If my first table isn't pretty good, I'd take breaks and scout the other tables. Being a regular is a huge leg up. Sometimes the dealer or the floor will help you out. Some regulars will tell you what the good games are. Being a nice human being helps here; angry jerk doesn't get good help.

Whatever you do, don't get mad at a bunch of decent players because you took some beats. Thinking, "I know this is a tough table, but I can beat these guys" and trying to grind back to breakeven is -EV. If they're only making small mistakes (or no mistakes), you're only going to win money via luck. If you want to play vs. the best to learn to play better, fine. Otherwise, if you're mad/stuck make an honest assessment; if there aren't people giving money away, find a new table. Get on the list early. You can always say "no thank you" when you come up.
Doug.. if you please...

*bump* this has probably been kicked to death. My issue is that I like to play 6/12 and the casino has only 2 tables and one is force move to the main table (10 Players). I can do well on both tables *sometimes* but the feeder table is usually easier. It depends, of course, on the line up.

So, I do not have a table choice unless I play 3/6 (5 tables). The choice is to play or not to play e.g. when to start/quit. That has been discussed as well. Knowing when you are up against a line-up that is tough you need to exit for the day. You can quit the feeder when called to force move and play 3/6 or NL for and hour and get back on the feeder. That is a workable strategy - a player did that on Saturday. Sunday I was up $400 so I decided not to move to the main table - the best players usually end up on that table with about 2-3 bad/loose players.

My real question is evaluating the line-up. How do I know that I am better than x-number of players - obv if I get the cards I can beat almost anyone. Further, if almost all hands are going to SD does it matter much if you are way better or not? You have to have the cards.

Loose game 6-9 to the flop - raise > 50%.

Semi-bluffing is not very effective since low-fold equity (rare but I can run a pure bluff if I tell a good story - 67s BB)
iso-raise does not work well very often
Check-raise and value betting is +EV
Having the odds to chase is +EV
Catching cards is priceless

Getting the right seat is +EV but hard to get since they do not leave often.

I'm reading Carson again and SSHE again...

Reading players/hands
Selecting seats
Table selection/Quiting
Getting away from losing hands
Getting value on the end

Carson has a section under player stereotypes - Targeting Players (kind of table selection) more than 7 players better than you then skip the table - you are not the favorite and the 2 that are worse than you will give you money but the other 7 will take it from you.

Carson's book was written several years ago but still seems revelent.

Of course, one strategy is to play 3/6 - the drop ($4+$1 tip) is the same but the players are easier and the possible win is lower (better to win $5/hr than lose $4/hr) - but, the gateway to 15/30 is via 6/12. Just avoid the main table if it looks tough; play 3/6 or leave? Duh, get better!

So, how do you know you are better than x-number of players?

Signs that you are better / worse?

1 - Use Tommy A's Reciprocality Approach. Switch the hands and see who won more or lose less?

2 - Loose player and floats flop (calling station).

3 - Players making mistakes, fold too much or call too much, raise too much.

This is too long

Your guidelines above are great but in my case I do not have a table choice as mentioned (change casinos).

Thanks in advance (yes, like a bad penny I will just not go away).
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03-30-2010 , 09:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by threeducks
So, how do you know you are better than x-number of players?

Signs that you are better / worse?

1 - Use Tommy A's Reciprocality Approach. Switch the hands and see who won more or lose less?

2 - Loose player and floats flop (calling station).

3 - Players making mistakes, fold too much or call too much, raise too much.
I'm not Doug, but I'll take a crack at this.

I'm not entirely sure why someone who's played as much as you needs to be taught who's better than you and who's not. Whether you're a good player or a bad player, usually you have a gut feeling and it's accurate.

In general, you classify players into three classes: players with known weaknesses that you can exploit, players with known weaknesses but you don't know how to exploit, and players with no known weaknesses. You dominate the first group - you can see their weaknesses and can exploit them, so you win from them. You are dominated by the second group - you can't see their weaknesses. You are probably on par with the second group. As you learn more, people slip from the third group to the second group and eventually down to the first group.

The only real way to identify this is by observation, and especially in live poker (because you can't multitable), observation is really easy because you've got all this time in between hands to just watch how people play. Key things I look for:

- What strength hand someone needs to donk into the preflop raiser.
- How often someone cbets the flop after PFR.
- What the pot odds were on the flop when someone chased a gutshot draw or a bottom pair draw.
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03-31-2010 , 03:43 PM
thanks callie - I was picking on Doug since he made the post - there are lots of people here who's opinion I respect and you are on that list.

As you know we see players playing worse than us and raking in the chips when we are there but we do not know how they do when we are not there. I think that if I can play against some worse players it will improve my win rate. I was really describing the must move two table system - it make table selection moot to some extent.

At Oaks there are usually 3 6/12 tables if I remember correctly. I hear guys mutter 'that line up is tough" and I take a look and see some good players but not a lot and I wonder.

Your recommendation is great - just look for players making basic mistakes. As long as 6-9 see the flop and 5+ see the turn you are in a loose (good game) since they all can not have a big piece of the flop.

I sometime win $600 and I sometimes loss $600 - I would like to reduce my stdev which is 186/12=15.5 - but playing against loose/bad players should increase that number not lower it.

Thanks again - back to our regularly scheduled program.
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03-31-2010 , 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by threeducks
As you know we see players playing worse than us and raking in the chips when we are there but we do not know how they do when we are not there.
It's kind of hard to say how that's relevant. You're going to remember the 1 idiot who won 50 BB in an hour and forget the 9 idiots who bled away 6 BB each over the same time frame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by threeducks
At Oaks there are usually 3 6/12 tables if I remember correctly. I hear guys mutter 'that line up is tough" and I take a look and see some good players but not a lot and I wonder.
People have some pretty funny ideas of what is tough. There are people who relish the maniac tables because they tend to overchase hands postflop - by playing at extremely loose, extremely aggressive tables with huge implied odds, their mistakes are minimized and they play closer to perfect. Then on the flip side there are people who relish the rock tables because they tend to overplay hands postflop - by playing at foldy tables, they steal a ton of pots and play closer to perfect. I've seen two players switch tables, each claiming the other table was terrible - and both were probably right.

Tough players, in my opinion, are the ones that can basically handle any situation - when the table's LAGgy they'll play Big Pot Roulette with the best of them, and then when the table is quiet and foldy they'll play King of the Hill with the best of them, and then when the table goes shorthanded they'll play 6-max with the best of them.

There aren't very many tough players at the Oaks IMO.

Seriously, I've played probably 40-50 hours with this one guy who is considered by most people to be a "tough" player, but only last week did he comment to me (after calling down two dominated hands in a row), "You know, I think I should start 3-betting or folding when you raise preflop." IMR.
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03-31-2010 , 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by threeducks
So, how do you know you are better than x-number of players?

Signs that you are better / worse?

1 - Use Tommy A's Reciprocality Approach. Switch the hands and see who won more or lose less?

2 - Loose player and floats flop (calling station).

3 - Players making mistakes, fold too much or call too much, raise too much.
1. Tommy's approach is the true measure; in the long run everyone gets every hand and the profit/loss is decided by how you'd do with their hands. Mason has talked about a similar concept-- people making mistakes that you don't make = profit. A good game is where many people make mistakes that you don't in a given situation.

2. In a loose/passive game, being a calling station can be close to optimal. In a TAG game, being a LAGTAG could be good. If someone is slightly too loose in a very loose game, he isn't making a big mistake. Just because he isn't playing "ideal poker" doesn't make him a big loser. As you move up (esp online), you may have leaks thinking that players more aggressive than you are bad players. In my case, they were the best players and I lost a lot of money learning how I didn't understand rating players.

3. All mistakes are situational. Bet/3 betting a TOM whit 2nd pair on the turn in a live game is a huge mistake. Limping 95s is a tiny (or no) mistake. You have to be able to identify the mistake vs. the situation rather than "HPFAP says not to do this".

In the end, you can look over a lineup and go, "these guys are fish" and then be right about it. That's expert. Otherwise, is there a good NL table? O/8? Stud? Not sitting down in a -EV spot is good for the BR. If you're over rolled or playing for fun, sit at any table you please.
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04-01-2010 , 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by DougL
1. Tommy's approach is the true measure; in the long run everyone gets every hand and the profit/loss is decided by how you'd do with their hands. Mason has talked about a similar concept-- people making mistakes that you don't make = profit. A good game is where many people make mistakes that you don't in a given situation.
Yeah, but that "long run" can be several hundred years, so from a practical standpoint, it's not true. If it were, you bitches better watch out, because I'm going to have a 20 year run of luck like nobody has ever seen.

How does Tommy's theory work? It's not like you can ask villain how he would've played your hand and vice versa.
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