It's folded to a relatively unknown button. He seems TAGish but slightly on the loose side. I call in the BB with 7c5c

Qd9c6s....I check, he bets....How should I proceed?

Attack!

Arm the torpedoes

Any evidence he has folded post flop before?

At the time of the hand I wasn't to informed about his post flop play.

Just call the bet, ffs.

Ok, so if you raise what hands are you trying to get to fold?

All the better hands. JJ, TT, 88, 77, 55-22, AK, AJ-A2, KJ-K2, JT-J7, T9-T7, 89, 87, 76, 65, 64s.

Will all of those hands fold? No. Will enough of them fold to make this play profitable? Yes.

I only consider this on the river. Flop and turn is more about maximizing the profitability of my bluffing range by raising strong draws often(or 100%) and weak draws rarely(or never). The realizable equity of my bluffing range is maximized(think about the profitability of a bluffing range that was purely polarized to the very worst hands that has two streets left to play, this would minimize the realizable equity of the bluffing range).

I also have this vague idea that future street bluffing ranges can easily be super saturated with bluffs if low equity bluffs are chosen at high frequency, which becomes a river liability; this would be an effect of bluffing the flop with the "let's get better hands to fold" philosophy.

The result of constructing my default flop check raising range like this is that I have two options as adjustment:

a) eliminate the weaker draws(call more with hands like 75 here) vs wild players.

b) add more weaker draws(raise more with hands like 75 here) vs tight players.

Vs tags I just try to maintain baseline strategy(what would Jon Locke do?)

That's why I'd call often here with 75, but I do raise it sometimes.

This is a good post. The trick with boards where we can be overbluffing easily is that we have to just give up with some bluffs on the turn. So here you can barrel turn when you improve to a higher equity draw. A nice side benefit is when you checkraise, check turn you often get a free card anyway cuz they are confused

Thank you. I had put this concept to the test last Friday in the theory forum here:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...ought-1731910/

I think it's just the nature of the game that (more equity) equates to (better profitability) and this is why the stronger draw should be played more aggressively than the weaker draw.

So if the nut worst draw in our range is a bet sometimes at x% of the time, we should naturally play anything with more equity more aggressively. This brings the implication that if the nut worst draw is a solid bet, then anything stronger is probably 100% bet(or raise)

at pokerstars you'll see a bet with a pair 95% of the time
What about check-call the flop and donk any turn (except when the board gets paired) ? if we talking about confusion

The point is to play our range well not just make confusing plays to be confusing. Check call flop donk turn is almost never a good line in lhe (there are a couple exceptions for sure)

It's a good line against 100% autobettors. And buttons often such ones

Qd9c6s2c with ace high he has a tough time calling because he doesn't know whether you intend to bet river (and folding the river is painful). But if it's check-check on the turn he can call the river.

We are not going to agree on this. A good line against 100% Autobettors is check raise.

They are comfortable with your check-raise. You think they see it for the first time?
I don't offer to donk everytime. But the donk bet is an undervalued option.

I just remember WSOP ME 2016 final table. Qui Nguyen made several such moves and all the young pros sat in panic not knowing what to do. Of course they expected to see ceremonial "bet-call, bet-call, check-check".
I don't understand why limit holdem is less apllicable for this line.

We are back to here now.

get a free card anyway cuz they are confused

Why do you want to confuse them by checking the turn after checkraising the flop and not by donking?
For me your idea is much worse. It's like "I wanted to steal and now giving up - take it".

Great stuff! Thanks!

Should we give up on all turns that don't improve our draw? Are there still turn cards that we should barrel UIP?

I agree people will check back out of confusion. I also think they fear the screwplay and don't want to look stupid.

Your donking line can work against some players. Tougher players tend to not take a donk as a significant show of strength. Quite often it's total BS. I know a lot of players who donk in order to find out were they are at. Good players are gonna take advantage of this by raising thinly or bluffing.

The check/raise, check is a line I don't often use but it does make sense. If we CR and just barrel with this hand we are bluffing too much and the villian can adjust accordingly. If we are targeting the type of player who is not combative and will bet/fold this flop then checking UIP makes sense if they do call. We can balance by check/raising the turn with some value hands that aren't strong enough to b3b. The turn getting checked through is not a bad thing since we benefit from a free card. I'd still bet an A or K turn against this type of player and give up on blanks.

You can force them to.
Earlier i myself mark such players as bad ones, but now i add turn donk in my arsenal. It's not about "where am i" It's about "I defenitely have a better hand and not gonna present free cards with one street to come".

x/c flop, donk turn is a completely reasonable line to take on certain turn cards imo. It’s a line I sometimes take on turn cards that hit my flop x/c range. Vs. good players who’s turn betting frequency is close to optimal, it’s pretty effective.

Lets say it is the same scenario pre flop. This time the board comes..AsKc3d and we have 4d5d.

If I were to CR this flop, what would be the worst hands villain should peel with? He doesn't have a flop 3 bet range IP. How low would you go with the pocket pairs? Calling the bigger pocket pairs like JJ's TT's etc make sense. I'd be concerned with going lower than say 88's due to the increased possibility of accidentally getting owned by the BB bluffing range.

Maybe this is not a good board to attack against a good player. He has a ton of A's and K's in his range and this seems like the type of board somebody may take a shot on.

Would you float/peel a hand like 9dTd if you were the button and got CR'd?

Do we continue to bet the turn UIP if called on the flop after the CR or is this a spot to check with our UIP low equity bluffs?

I'm just throwing out some thoughts. I tend to not play these spots so well.