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Old 10-02-2017, 08:27 PM   #1
DTLB
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8/16 - two bottom pair hands

Hand 1:

I table change and post in between the SB and BN. Three limps, I check J2 and six of us see the flop of Q72 (6 SB).

I x as do the blinds, there's a bet and a call and it's on me. Is it standard to call here for 8:1?

Hand 2:

Four limps, SB folds, I x J3 in BB. Flop 732 (5.5 SB). X to BN who bets.

I think I'm supposed to xr here but say it folds to BN who calls and turn doesn't improve us. What then?

Thoughts on both hands?
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Old 10-03-2017, 12:03 AM   #2
ninefingershuffle
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Re: 8/16 - two bottom pair hands

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Originally Posted by DTLB View Post
Hand 1:

I table change and post in between the SB and BN. Three limps, I check J2 and six of us see the flop of Q72 (6 SB).

I x as do the blinds, there's a bet and a call and it's on me. Is it standard to call here for 8:1?

Hand 2:

Four limps, SB folds, I x J3 in BB. Flop 732 (5.5 SB). X to BN who bets.

I think I'm supposed to xr here but say it folds to BN who calls and turn doesn't improve us. What then?

Thoughts on both hands?
I’d lead both hands and definitely the second one. I’d peel the First as pkayed
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Old 10-03-2017, 12:44 AM   #3
mikeca
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Re: 8/16 - two bottom pair hands

In a multiway pot I would usually call on the flop, but I would not call on the turn unless my hand improves.

If this is a heads up or 3 way pot, I would lead the flop on the second hand and maybe on the first depending on reads on opponents.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:16 AM   #4
Aaron W.
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Re: 8/16 - two bottom pair hands

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I’d lead both hands...
I wouldn't lead bottom pair into a handed pot.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:43 AM   #5
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Re: 8/16 - two bottom pair hands

Leading hand 1 would be terrible.
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Old 10-03-2017, 12:01 PM   #6
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Re: 8/16 - two bottom pair hands

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I wouldn't lead bottom pair into a SIX handed pot.
Because I suck at numbers, apparently.
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Old 10-03-2017, 03:01 PM   #7
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Re: 8/16 - two bottom pair hands

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I wouldn't lead bottom pair into a handed pot.
He has middle pair In the second hand in a seven high board
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Old 10-03-2017, 03:39 PM   #8
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Re: 8/16 - two bottom pair hands

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Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
He has middle pair In the second hand in a seven high board
Methinks you've jumbled stuff in your head

Quote:
Originally Posted by DTLB View Post
Hand 1:

I table change and post in between the SB and BN. Three limps, I check J2 and six of us see the flop of Q72 (6 SB).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
I’d lead both hands
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Old 10-03-2017, 04:45 PM   #9
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Re: 8/16 - two bottom pair hands

I like a c/f hand one and a bet on hand two. As played id probably x/r.
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Old 10-03-2017, 05:08 PM   #10
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Re: 8/16 - two bottom pair hands

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Methinks you've jumbled stuff in your head
In the second hand he has J3. On a 732r board. Isn’t that the nuts?
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Old 10-03-2017, 06:28 PM   #11
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Re: 8/16 - two bottom pair hands

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I’d lead both hands and definitely the second one. I’d peel the First as pkayed
Just curious why you'd lead hand 1. I feel like that would be overplaying my hand because I don't see many worse hands calling while all better hands do. I get that it protects my equity by folding out overcards but say half the field folds while the other half calls...what do we do OTT UI (assume it's 3-way)?
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Old 10-03-2017, 06:33 PM   #12
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Re: 8/16 - two bottom pair hands

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I like a c/f hand one and a bet on hand two. As played id probably x/r.
Would calling hand 1 be bad? Seems like we're getting the right price to see the turn.

If we xr hand 2, what do we do OTT assuming only BN calls?
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Old 10-03-2017, 10:32 PM   #13
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Re: 8/16 - two bottom pair hands

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In the second hand he has J3. On a 732r board. Isn’t that the nuts?
I bethink thou art not acknown of thy owneth w'rk.
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Old 10-03-2017, 10:41 PM   #14
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Re: 8/16 - two bottom pair hands

Hand 1 I check and peel. I don't continue UI.

Hand 2 I check with the intention of raising a late position bet, peeling if there's a bet and several callers, and folding if it's 2 bets back to me (or maybe if there's an early position bettor and no one calls). Once you c/r, I think you should call a 3bet (and probably fold the turn UI) and probably bet/fold most turns unimproved.
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Old 10-03-2017, 10:54 PM   #15
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Re: 8/16 - two bottom pair hands

I check in these marginal mw situations. This allows me to ge more information before I act and therefore gives me more options on how to proceed.

I'd peel hand 1. We should be able to get in a CR if we improve and fold if not.

I CR hand 2 and bet any turn card HU.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:01 PM   #16
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Re: 8/16 - two bottom pair hands

Hand 1: it matters where the bet comes from, and description of bettor. Absent reads, standard play is fold.

Hand 2: Again, description of bettor matters. Generally at lower stakes, I assume most people don't bluff. But, we still might beat some A-hi semibluffs. Also, a high card means we might get a free river; I call.
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Old 10-05-2017, 03:50 AM   #17
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Re: 8/16 - two bottom pair hands

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Originally Posted by DTLB View Post
Would calling hand 1 be bad? Seems like we're getting the right price to see the turn.

If we xr hand 2, what do we do OTT assuming only BN calls?
The reason I don't like calling hand one is unless I read it wrong, you aren't closing the action. I'd hate to make a speculative peel and then have to call another or multiple bets. I'd snap continue if I was sure it would only be one.
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Old 10-08-2017, 12:49 PM   #18
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Re: 8/16 - two bottom pair hands

Grunch

Quote:
Originally Posted by DTLB View Post
Hand 1:

I table change and post in between the SB and BN. Three limps, I check J2 and six of us see the flop of Q72 (6 SB).

I x as do the blinds, there's a bet and a call and it's on me. Is it standard to call here for 8:1?
You've got five outs to improve, and the board texture is such that these outs are not tainted. You've got a ten percent shot (9:1) of improving on the turn and twenty percent (4:1) by the river.

If you hit, you are likely to get at least one more big bet before a showdown, likely more. Implied odds are certainly enough to justify seeing at least a turn card. Call and evaluate the turn; you might or might not want to see a river card.

Quote:
Hand 2:

Four limps, SB folds, I x J3 in BB. Flop 732 (5.5 SB). X to BN who bets.

I think I'm supposed to xr here but say it folds to BN who calls and turn doesn't improve us. What then?

Thoughts on both hands?
Do the same thing you would do with pocket sixes.

I would be inclined to lead the turn unimproved and evaluate if the villain raises. I'd be more likely to continue if raised if the turn card was a 6 or 8 than if it was a big card.

Assuming you get to the river unimproved, you will have a hand that can handily beat a bluff but probably won't get called by a worse one. Check/call.
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Old 10-09-2017, 04:01 PM   #19
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Re: 8/16 - two bottom pair hands

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Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
You've got five outs to improve, and the board texture is such that these outs are not tainted.
I worry about taint in the first hand. QJo and J7o are both pretty popular hands, and think we should discount our J outs.

Second hand has 5 outs for sure and probably implied odds on the J out.
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Old 10-09-2017, 10:02 PM   #20
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Re: 8/16 - two bottom pair hands

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Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
Grunch



You've got five outs to improve, and the board texture is such that these outs are not tainted. You've got a ten percent shot (9:1) of improving on the turn and twenty percent (4:1) by the river.

If you hit, you are likely to get at least one more big bet before a showdown, likely more. Implied odds are certainly enough to justify seeing at least a turn card. Call and evaluate the turn; you might or might not want to see a river card.



Do the same thing you would do with pocket sixes.

I would be inclined to lead the turn unimproved and evaluate if the villain raises. I'd be more likely to continue if raised if the turn card was a 6 or 8 than if it was a big card.

Assuming you get to the river unimproved, you will have a hand that can handily beat a bluff but probably won't get called by a worse one. Check/call.
Thanks for this. Your replies make a lot of sense, with one caveat that I would snap fold hand 2 if raised OTT, regardless of what card it was. I haven't seen many/any 8/16 players bluff raise turn so far.
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Old 10-09-2017, 10:04 PM   #21
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Re: 8/16 - two bottom pair hands

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I worry about taint in the first hand. QJo and J7o are both pretty popular hands, and think we should discount our J outs.

Second hand has 5 outs for sure and probably implied odds on the J out.
QJo is definitely a possibility in a MW limped pot but I don't know about J7o. Only the blinds would really have that imo.
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