I've started playing the 8/16 because I think the 4/8 is unbeatable due to the rake ($7 + Tip) on pots over $50. That's $32/hour in rake on average meaning you have to win 4 Big Bets per hour to break even. The 8/16 has the exact same rake structure. So, you're a small winner if you can win more than 2 Big Bets per hour on average.

The catch is that most low limit players play the 3/6 or the 4/8 - I believe they don't understand the math. I want to play the 8/16 for these reasons. But there's always only 1 table going with a bunch of regs and some of them are tough. They'll 3! pf with 76o and then cap the flop with 1 pair and a back door draw. This makes them difficult to play against because they do this with their hands that have flopped well too. I know I haven't really asked a question - but I'm wondering, in general, how to play against these types of players - there were two immediately on my left. The game was 9-handed. In my estimation there are 2 or 3 soft spots at these games and the other players seem better than descent. In this case I chose to leave the game.

Thanks - Any thoughts are appreciated.

I’m never get to play and am a rec at best, but in spots like you’re describing with two LAGs on your left, I just tighten my opening ranges.

If you’re playing a tighter range and they are capping flops with backdoors, you should be printing against them.

Sounds like a great game if people are 3betting you with 76 offsuit. In games like these you just gotta ride the wave. Are a lot of people making it to showdown? Are they shutting down after being called on the flop? It sounds like they are making a lot of plays that can be exploited for big value and monster pots.

In general you can just ram and jam for value against these guys because they’ll put in a bunch of money with dominated hands. And just recognize that you won’t be able to get in for cheap and just play your equity to make the best hand, since they will be putting so much money in early while behind. Also remember that this is not no limit, so oftentimes you’ll be getting great situations with nutted draws multiway.

If it’s going heads up a bunch then yeah the game probably isn’t going to be that great because the rake will eat you up. Sounds like that’s not a problem here though, just a matter of playing fearless poker with regards to calling down the maniacs and playing the equity with regards to hand selection/aggression with made hands or draws that are likely ahead. Don’t let them scare you into playing timid or worse yet scared money. Start 4betting them frequently to punish their light 3bets. If someone is 3betting 76 offsuit suddenly TT and AJs is a slam dunk 4bet for value.

I'll admit that while those kinds of regs aren't playing well and are almost certainly losing players, this kind of table will give you tons of variance, and it's not my preferred game time. Still, if you want to make any money long-term, you are right that it's going to be very tough to do at a 4/8 game with that rake. So you're going to have to strap in, be willing to play a lot of monster pots, and showdown a lot more often than you would in a loose passive game.

As you get better, you'll eventually realize that almost none of the other players are actually any good. Unless it's the biggest game in the room, probably very few aren't really bad, and you can probably find leaks to exploit against even the other winning players. In the meantime, try to sit to the left of the LAGs and to the right of the tightest players; that's almost always the best idea in any game.

Good luck from someone who started playing 1/2 LHE (in a real casino, imagine stakes that low!) 20 years ago and now crushes 20/40, where I see very few players who I consider "decent".

I agree with all of this. I play mostly 20/40 these days, but the games that I always try to avoid are the ones where it is consistently 2-3 players to a flop for 2-3 bets. The games where people are raising and re-raising with garbage are incredibly lucrative, even though the swings can be brutal.

I also agree that the 8/16 will likely be tougher if it is the biggest game in the room (and especially so if it is the biggest game nearby). That doesn't mean it will be super tough, but the player pool in that type of game is very different than the type of player pool you see in a room that also spreads 20/40 and/or 40/80.

You are correct that this is a high, and likely unbeatable rake. But your analysis is wrong. Rake is paid by the winning hand, not by the table. So, you don't need to win a certain number of BB per hour to keep ahead of the rake. If you fold every hand for an hour, you've paid zero rake. Instead, the higher rake means that all your hands have a lower EV because you're winning that much less when you win the pot. So, a hand that would be breakeven in a 5+1 structure is now a loser because it's winning $2 less every time it wins. In raked games (as compared to time games), and especially in highly raked games, you need to play tighter because your worst hands no longer show a profit.

I'm not sure if when you say "tough," you are suggesting they are "good." Someone three betting 76o is almost certainly not a good player. It can be challenging to play against LAGs if you are used to playing in passive games. But you can print versus anyone that's just playing too loosely. The best and simplest advice I can give you is that you need to make sure you are not folding too much against them. You are going to have a stronger range, which means you are going to end up with the best hand more often than them. It will work itself out so long as you don't let them bet you off the winning hand, and you utilize at least some hand reading so you don't give them piles when they are ahead. But when they do end up hitting some miraculous hand and they beat your strong hand, remember, LAGs get paid. That's the flipside of the fact that they don't often have anything - when they do, you have to pay the piper.

Change seats. Ideally, you want the softest players on your right, but you also do not want these LAGs on your left if you are uncomfortable playing against them. Until you get more comfortable playing against them, don't set yourself up to be OOP against them almost every hand. Just sit to their left or across the table from them.

Personally I don’t think having a maniac on your left is a bad thing, if you know how to use their bad betting strategies against them. You can check/raise the field, use them as protection by donking into them, you have them 3bet your opens thus giving you some protection, etc.

If they’re a good lag, that’s different, but these guys don’t sound good they sound like crazies.

I agree, and I don't mind having bad LAGs on my left, my advice is limited to OP because he doesn't yet feel super comfortable playing against them, and I think he needs to increase his comfort level before he starts playing a bunch of OOP pots against them at stakes above his normal comfort zone.

Oh for sure. I agree with this take then. But I’d rather have them one or two to my right than directly to my right. Just because it will be super annoying to have them start stealing your buttons all the time and freezing you out of pots that you might otherwise be able to enter.

Either way might he good for OP to exercise some game selection and only come into the game when the action seems reasonable, or there aren’t two knuckleheads right next to each other at least.

Fair, but you don't learn to beat LAGs if you don't play with them!

Yes, it can be, but at least OP thinks these guys are decent, so compared to him they are closer to "good lags". They certainly don't sound like maniacs who are raising and reraising at every opportunity.

Probably the best two books I read to help win in games like this are Stoxtrader How to win in tough holdem games and newall’s the intelligent poker player. A few outdated concepts but certainly better than nothing.

The easiest lesson to learn in these games is… fur coats. Don’t make the tough fold that helps you beat the passive players. “Pay ze man his monies”. Whatever you want to call it. I can remember so many times that I made mistakes by not calling wide enough against crazy players.

Thanks everyone - all valuable advice for me!

OK - this game is the biggest in the room. There are typically three or four 4/8 games, two 3/6 games, and this one 8/16 game. One person (in the replies) said "it may be tough if this is the biggest game in the room". All same rake - 10% up to $5 + $2 Jackpot + Tip.

Not too far away there's a room that spreads 20/40 and 40/80 daily. And sometimes 10/20. Would it be better to sit in the 20/40?

20/40 rake is $7/half hour and 40/80 rake is $8/half hour.

Note: I'm adequately bankrolled for the 40/80. But psychologically I'd "almost" be "scared money" in the 20/40.

So, I guess the question here is, on average, how does the "not biggest game in the room" compare to the "biggest game in the room"?

It really depends. In my experience, once a room starts to offer reasonably high stakes (mid stakes and high stakes games), the biggest game in the room is often not the hardest. The second biggest game often is. This is not always true, but it definitely can be. I wouldn't be surprised to see your 20/40 game populated mostly by decent, fairly tough regs while the 40/80 has a mix of pros and absolute whales.

If you’re adequately rolled for it, you should at least scout it out and play a session or two. You might find that everyone sucks.

If you’re rolled for 40 but are scared money even at 20/40 just play the 8/16. Stop loss of 600. Get used to it. Then once you string together a few nice wins, take a shot at the 20. GL

'They'll 3! pf with 76o and then cap the flop with 1 pair and a back door draw.'

You call these types tough?