Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-25-2017, 01:08 PM   #1
JestersCap
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 95
8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

Button opens, SB calls. Button and SB are both 20/40 players waiting for their game to start. I've noticed that the button in particular seems to be playing very loosely and aggressively and I feel that he may be somewhat contemptuous of playing at this lower limit. Or perhaps he has accurately assessed that he has tons of fold equity running people over.

I call with A4 out of BB

Flop is 972r, 1 diamond. SB & and I check, button bets. SB folds, I ?

I feel that my best two options are to semibluff raise with the intention of betting the turn if I'm not 3b (as long as the turn isn't a non-diamond 5, 6, 8, T, J), or to call with the intention of calling down as long as the runout isn't a catastrophe.

The benefits of the semibluff raise are that it would force the villain to fold a lot of the random no pair hands (my perceived image should be tight and passive, so I don't think villain would 3b any of these hands as a bluff) that I feel are a big part of his range. Calling down, on the other hand, costs less and may be more valuable b/c of continued aggression it may induce.

I'm sure the best way to analyze this would be to assign a range to the villain and then estimate how he would respond with parts of his range to my actions, but I'm not really sure of either - I just have the somewhat vague read of "boy this guy seems to be opening a lot and firing"
JestersCap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 01:41 PM   #2
jdr0317
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 5,574
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JestersCap View Post
Button opens, SB calls. Button and SB are both 20/40 players waiting for their game to start. I've noticed that the button in particular seems to be playing very loosely and aggressively and I feel that he may be somewhat contemptuous of playing at this lower limit. Or perhaps he has accurately assessed that he has tons of fold equity running people over.

I call with A4 out of BB

Flop is 972r, 1 diamond. SB & and I check, button bets. SB folds, I ?

I feel that my best two options are to semibluff raise with the intention of betting the turn if I'm not 3b (as long as the turn isn't a non-diamond 5, 6, 8, T, J), or to call with the intention of calling down as long as the runout isn't a catastrophe.

The benefits of the semibluff raise are that it would force the villain to fold a lot of the random no pair hands (my perceived image should be tight and passive, so I don't think villain would 3b any of these hands as a bluff) that I feel are a big part of his range. Calling down, on the other hand, costs less and may be more valuable b/c of continued aggression it may induce.

I'm sure the best way to analyze this would be to assign a range to the villain and then estimate how he would respond with parts of his range to my actions, but I'm not really sure of either - I just have the somewhat vague read of "boy this guy seems to be opening a lot and firing"
Your thread title is contradictory. Your hand can't be worth either a semibluff or a calldown. You should be using hands that won't win at showdown often enough to semibluff. Also, bluffs actually need to fold out better to be effective.

In this instance, your A4s stands to be the best hand enough to justify a call. Moreover, you really aren't folding out better from BTN. So I'm not sure why you'd choose to bluff this hand.
jdr0317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 03:41 PM   #3
DonkeyOnTilt
adept
 
DonkeyOnTilt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canterbury, hopefully sober.
Posts: 809
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

My standard is to call flop here. If you check raise and he folds he has some super duper air hand that you missed catching bluffs on.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
DonkeyOnTilt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 05:07 PM   #4
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: takin it to the streets
Posts: 8,923
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

I'd check call the flop. My flop check raise bluffing range in this spot looks kinda like this:

any straight draw + overcard 100%

any open ended straight draw 100%

dumb end gutshot with backdoor flushdraw somewhat often

dumb end gutshot no backdoor flushdraw less often

43s with a backdoor flushdraw even less often

53s with a backdoor flushdraw even less often

54s with a backdoor flushdraw even less often
Bob148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 01:24 PM   #5
phunkphish
veteran
 
phunkphish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,722
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

^^ 4hi and 5hi should be easy folds.

Poker is a 3 street game. You don't have to commit to showdown on the flop. Call and reevaluate.

3b PF is also worth considering if you think SB is severely decapitated and BTN is too loose.
phunkphish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2017, 11:40 AM   #6
dead.money
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 229
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

Raising seems correct here. I mean if the hand were reversed and the OP was the villain and the hero is the 20/40 guy and he post the hand as, playing at 4/8 table and this hand comes up, raising button with AK blinds call, (villian is a 4/8 guy tight and passive)
Flop comes 972r checks to me and I bet and BB check raises. Whats ur advice? And if say 2 pairs on turn and BB fires again, you suggest calling down? So I think you can get many better hands to fold here. Also, you said the guy was trying to run over table, sends him a msg that he can't run over you. Might keep him from makin a move on you in future. Will also get you extra money on future pots.
dead.money is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2017, 12:03 PM   #7
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: takin it to the streets
Posts: 8,923
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

I want him to try to make moves in the future.
Bob148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2017, 12:17 PM   #8
dead.money
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 229
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
I want him to try to make moves in the future.
LOL, well I'm sure you do, but I think your avg 4/8 -8/16 player would rather play someone who's play is more straight forward....including me lol.
dead.money is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2017, 12:22 PM   #9
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: takin it to the streets
Posts: 8,923
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

If by straight forward you mean good poker? Then no, I want them to spew.
Bob148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2017, 11:23 PM   #10
AlanBostick
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AlanBostick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Value Town (Pronouns: he/him)
Posts: 8,894
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

Ace-high is the wrong hand to bluff with. Just don't. You want to bluff with the very bottom of your range.

You should be seriously considering calling down here. A factor that weighs into the decision to call down: How likely is the villain to c-bet the turn or barrel the river with air?

It's good to think about how we are doing against the villain's range. Also, flop texture (this one is moderately dry except for diamond draws and hands like T8).

Calling down may be right here. Raising certainly is not.
AlanBostick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2017, 02:57 AM   #11
jdr0317
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 5,574
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
Ace-high is the wrong hand to bluff with. Just don't. You want to bluff with the very bottom of your range.

You should be seriously considering calling down here. A factor that weighs into the decision to call down: How likely is the villain to c-bet the turn or barrel the river with air?

It's good to think about how we are doing against the villain's range. Also, flop texture (this one is moderately dry except for diamond draws and hands like T8).

Calling down may be right here. Raising certainly is not.
Actually we'd prefer bluff check raising the top of our folding range here. 54s w/ BDFD would be a decent candidate, as it can turn lots of equity but really can't justify a peel here.

For semi-bluffs, we have obvious candidates in our open-enders. It's obviously going to have far more equity than A4s when we get continued action, so it won't have to work as often.

One thing for certain is that this is a terrible hand to bluff x/r the flop with. We really can't expect better to fold (except maybe like A6 that doesn't pick up a straight draw on the turn), and we fold out worse, so it's a disaster play in that regard.

I know a lot of bad reg type players who will check raise hands like this constantly because "I have ace against button open, I deserve to win this pot". Sure it denies equity, so you get to win more often. The other things that happen are that you get yourself bluffed off the winner sometimes, or putting in a whole lot more money than by just clicking call twice and making a decision on the river.
jdr0317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2017, 04:53 AM   #12
HUMBLE.
grinder
 
HUMBLE.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: on my grind, cousin.
Posts: 696
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

sb cold calling in the sb means you should rack up and head to the 20/40, yes?
HUMBLE. is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2017, 09:09 AM   #13
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: takin it to the streets
Posts: 8,923
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

Quote:
You want to bluff with the very bottom of your range.
I think this is only true on the river when nobody has yet bet, or when the board interacts with the ranges such that the action allows you to bet 100%.

Suggested reading to understand why:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15...46/?highlight=
Bob148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2017, 01:23 PM   #14
dead.money
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 229
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
If by straight forward you mean good poker? Then no, I want them to spew.
good poker is being exploitable?
dead.money is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2017, 01:30 PM   #15
dead.money
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 229
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
Ace-high is the wrong hand to bluff with. Just don't. You want to bluff with the very bottom of your range.

You should be seriously considering calling down here. A factor that weighs into the decision to call down: How likely is the villain to c-bet the turn or barrel the river with air?

It's good to think about how we are doing against the villain's range. Also, flop texture (this one is moderately dry except for diamond draws and hands like T8).

Calling down may be right here. Raising certainly is not.
So you should NEVER? bluff with an Ace? No one is taking into account the other factors in the hand...villian usually plays higher and is trying to run over table, our image is a tight passive 4/8 player. Dry flop heads up. We have ton of fold equity, and even if the guy actually has a hand this time, the raise still has value on later hands. I'd prefer to take the lead in the hand as opposed to just sitting back and calling down and letting guy make a pair.
dead.money is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2017, 01:33 PM   #16
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: takin it to the streets
Posts: 8,923
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dead.money View Post
good poker is being exploitable?
I'm not sure what you meant by "straight forward."
Bob148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2017, 01:38 PM   #17
dead.money
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 229
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

"One thing for certain is that this is a terrible hand to bluff x/r the flop with. We really can't expect better to fold (except maybe like A6 that doesn't pick up a straight draw on the turn), and we fold out worse, so it's a disaster play in that regard. "

Ahh yes trapped in a vacum! You can't expect better to fold against you in your 20/40 game but does that apply to hero in this situaiton? I think not. Check raise in this spot is correct, but once again IMHO.
dead.money is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2017, 01:40 PM   #18
DonkeyOnTilt
adept
 
DonkeyOnTilt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canterbury, hopefully sober.
Posts: 809
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dead.money View Post
So you should NEVER? bluff with an Ace? No one is taking into account the other factors in the hand...villian usually plays higher and is trying to run over table, our image is a tight passive 4/8 player. Dry flop heads up. We have ton of fold equity, and even if the guy actually has a hand this time, the raise still has value on later hands. I'd prefer to take the lead in the hand as opposed to just sitting back and calling down and letting guy make a pair.
We very likely have the best hand, why would you try to maximize fold equity?
DonkeyOnTilt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2017, 01:40 PM   #19
dead.money
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 229
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
I'm not sure what you meant by "straight forward."
Very lil semi bluffing if any. If they bet they have top pair or better. If they raise they have AK, AQ, maybe AJ, and 99's or better. with some big suited broadways thrown in.
dead.money is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2017, 01:45 PM   #20
dead.money
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 229
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkeyOnTilt View Post
We very likely have the best hand, why would you try to maximize fold equity?
Not maximizing fold equity, fold equity is what it is and we have a ton. Furthermore, if we think we have best hand shouldn't we be check raising anyway?
dead.money is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2017, 02:58 PM   #21
DonkeyOnTilt
adept
 
DonkeyOnTilt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canterbury, hopefully sober.
Posts: 809
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dead.money View Post
Not maximizing fold equity, fold equity is what it is and we have a ton. Furthermore, if we think we have best hand shouldn't we be check raising anyway?
You're wrong. If you're check raising with the best hand it's for value not fold equity.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
DonkeyOnTilt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2017, 03:22 PM   #22
Montrealcorp
Pooh-Bah
 
Montrealcorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5,592
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dead.money View Post
...villian usually plays higher and is trying to run over table, our image is a tight passive 4/8 player.

I'd prefer to take the lead in the hand as opposed to just sitting back and calling down and letting guy make a pair.
Are you taking account how villain plays ?

Wether you bet or he bets what the difference ?
If he bets with a weaker hand his still losing and paying to draw ...

Worst thing you can do is to bluff with a hand you shouldn't bluff with and get 3bet bluff and force to fold ....
That what people trying to run the table do .
Montrealcorp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2017, 03:58 PM   #23
dead.money
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 229
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
Are you taking account how villain plays ?

Wether you bet or he bets what the difference ?
If he bets with a weaker hand his still losing and paying to draw ...

Worst thing you can do is to bluff with a hand you shouldn't bluff with and get 3bet bluff and force to fold ....
That what people trying to run the table do .
Doubt the guy is gonna raise a tight and passive 4/8 player who just checked raised him. and why are we automatically folding to a three bet from this guy? If he three bets call and evaluate after turn. And you're assuming he has a draw worth continuing with if he even has that.
dead.money is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2017, 04:00 PM   #24
dead.money
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 229
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkeyOnTilt View Post
You're wrong. If you're check raising with the best hand it's for value not fold equity.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Never said I was check raising for fold equity. I said we had a ton of fold equity. And not sure our hand is best, yet, the raise works either way.
dead.money is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2017, 04:25 PM   #25
Aaron W.
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Henderson, NV
Posts: 28,002
Re: 8/16 - Semi Bluff or Call Down?

Against this player (a player that we know is playing below his level and so is reasonably likely playing looser/more aggressive because it's small chip stuff), I'm check-calling each street and showing down ace high. He'll turn over his K-high that paired up on the river, and we'll all have a good laugh.
Aaron W. is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online