In the 3 bet case, 6 players ( 3 limpers, you, BT and SB putting in 3 bets making it 18 bets total, if you put in 2 more bets. Therefore you are getting 9:1 on your bets.

In the 4 bet case, 6 players putting in 4 bets making it 24 bets total, if you put in 3 more bets. You are getting 8:1 on you bets.

Easy call, either way with JT suited getting at least 8:1.

raising JTs utg FR seems counterintuitive to me because the criteria we'd like for this hand include MW, IP vs wide ranges and in for cheap. But when we raise utg we tend to cut down the field and get oop vs narrow calling ranges. And we also risk getting 3b pre and/or being dominated post by a higher FD, OP or kicker.

I noticed you said you'd snap raise in a MSLHE game. What would be the reason for that, and why wouldn't you do that at say, 8/16?

Well, if I'm even playing the JTs up front, it's to exploit the mistakes people make (too much cold calling, face up ranges post flop, etc). This being said, I'd expect the WR between them pre rake to be similar in those game textures, and more rake per pot size makes it less attractive at 8/16.

This being said, I'm still raising it in a circus game.

Once you get to 20-40 you will be against tougher line-ups. There are some good players at that limit who are making a modest living. And even the not so good players are going to notice that you have a limping range that's a lot different than your UTG raising range and that is bad. You have to mix it up and I'm pretty sure that there are players in this forum playing the higher stakes that open a lot worse than J-10ss UTG on occasion. And if you happen to get 3-bet it's not like your hand is a piece of trash.

At 8-16, though, where players limp up front w/ very strong hands J-10ss is still attractive when it's going off multi-way which is the case in any good low limit game. Since the other players are limping hands like A-Q and J-J up front your UTG limp w/ J-10ss doesn't mean anything to them bec they think you play like them. So, if you know that most pots are going off multi-way you're not going to fold and you don't have to raise since there's no need for deception.

In today's game I limped hands up front - like small pairs (flopped full on one of them) - bec few are there to punish me. And that's what's good about low limit if you're a decent player. You don't have to be great, just have some idea about what's going on.

Maybe don't have a limping range?

That is why you have to open hands like J-10ss UTG - and worse - at least some of the time.

Unless you have honey badger level disrepect for your opponents, you want to be boring and predictable when 9 people are going to act behind you.

Any UTG raising range is going to be unbalanced. Balancing it costs more than it benefits.

And despite being super tight, your winrate from that position is going to be pretty close to "if you need to miss a hand, miss your free UTG hand and make it back to post half an hour's worth of blind money in the BB."

If you're only going to raise premiums UTG the other players are going to know very quickly. If you're playing the J-10ss UTG at 20-40 and higher it should be for a raise in all games except the very loose passive.

I'm more with callipygian on this one. They probably won't know because they're not paying enough attention. I've had long periods of being card dead at the same time, and have had my early position raise coldcalled by a bunch of players anyway. At the lower levels, there aren't enough of them that care.

Besides, you can increase your raising when you're in position with hands, and those hands will bleed into their memories. The odds are quite good that most of them don't even pay attention to position when they think about hands you've raised (if they even think beyond the two cards in front of them in the first place).

And the problem with that is ... ?

This was kind of my point. The positional disadvantage is scarier than the loss of failing to hide information, correct? My understanding is we don’t 3 bet junk hands to an early position raise in order to balance either, unless I’m doing this wrong.

Now I think if you want to argue opening JTs is a straight equity advantage, then have at it. I just was surprised by the “balance” argument

I'm quoting Aaron but this is really directed at Howard. This is exactly it - given a choice between opening JTs UTG FR and raising limpers from M/LP, my choice is to do the latter. It fits the JTs profile better, you have better position, and you still get the reputation of being wild and crazy. It's a little odd that you're advocating opening it UTG when you've concurrently voiced doubts avout raising limpers.

I was playing 4-8 a couple of weeks ago and I opened A-Ko UTG. It folded around to some guy who showed his hand to his neighbor and said: 'You need a stronger hand than this to call that guy's raises.' That's at 4-8.

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The two situations you mention are very different. Once it looks like most of the field is going to see a flop the question becomes 'do I want to let everyone in w/ my very good multi-way hand or raise and take the chance of cutting down the field?' At 8-16 it's a bit of a toss-up. I said that I didn't mind a raise but I'd rather have as many as possible come along. The 'problem' w/ never showing that you've raised less than premiums UTG - I'm talking higher limits here - is that your action will dry up unless the game is exceptionally good. At lower limits - as I've said repeatedly - they simply don't care.

Anyway, at least I've proven that I'm not a nit.

Have you really?

This is exactly backwards.

On the cost side, it's a much bigger mistake to open JTs at 80/160 where people will 3-bet AJo than at 8/16 where people will coldcall it. You get way less out of it at 80/160 where people fold J7s than at 8/16 when they coldcall it.

On the benefit side, you do get more people at 80/160 who notice you open wide UTG -- and that is a BAD thing. In tight aggressive games, a huge percentage of your value comes from taking the blinds down uncontested or your opponent folding to a flop cbet. At 8/16, you are correct few people will notice but it doesn't matter as much since most pots are multiway.

Do you fold the J-10ss UTG?

Usually yes. Especially if players behind are scary and will 3bet. I would be much more inclined to open in a 9 handed 8/16 game vs a 9 handed 40/80 game.

Definitely not open limping or over limping.

Raising if the game is amazing and I think I have value in raising it.

I know you weren’t asking me directly just chiming in.

If your 8-16 game is typical w/ many multi-way pots for 1 or 2 bets folding J-10ss is too tight no matter your position. I get the impression that you're uncomfortable in the game (sorry if I'm wrong) so I suggest a few sessions of paying very close attention: Fold your J-10ss up front, limp in along w/ the crowd when the crowd appears and watch. Here's what I know I'll see just like I saw last night: players coming in w/ 10-5o. I mention that bec it was from the worst player at the table and he wasn't much worse than the others.

You don't have to solve this question right away. Take a bit of time and observe and I expect that you'll find that there's no single way to play the hand at 8-16. I prefer a crowd, others don't, and I won't tell them that they're wrong but it's not my style.

No offense taken. I'm a little too timid. I just want to make sure I improve and get this correct:

1. Limp JTs UTG at 4/8 and 8/16. We do this because the players will fold if we raise and will not call with dominated hands. Typical in these lower limit games.

2. After three limpers and we are in the highjack, do NOT raise with JTs. The button and cutoff might fold, so overlimping is better than raising. We don't want to get too raise happy and would rather play a smaller pot multiway in position.

3. If you limp in with JTs, someone raises, and another player 3 bets, we should cap because why not.

4. When at the 20/40 game, raise JTs UTG because of balance. This keeps the good players guessing, we don't get punished for opening too lightly, and the balance makes up for the positional disadvantage and we get paid off with our good hands. Also the weaker players make different mistakes from the 8/16 players by now cold calling and playing poorly post flop.

In some games where I play, there are players who never fold ("no fold'em hold'em"). They just call in these situations.

hmmm.......that sum's it up for me. Take it easy w/ the 'because why not' part, though, it sometimes leads to getting married to a weak hand otf.

At higher limits I fold, at lower limits I raise.

In case it's not clear, I disagree with Howard on 3.5 out of these 4.

The 0.5 where I agree is that I think open-limping JTs UTG at lower limits is fine and maybe even better moneywise - I prefer to raise but if I'm playing a game where I don't fold it, it means that I'm not seriously trying to make money.

You should think of this less as "at certain stakes you should..." and more like "when the game conditions are X you should..."

You should limp JTs UTG in games where your opponents will happily call one bet preflop with garbage but are tighter against a raise.

I disagree with this. Against a number of limpers, JTs has an equity advantage, and so you want to get more bets in the pot. You would definitely rather play a big pot multiway in position.

LOL. No. "Because why not" is not a strategic reason to do it. I mean, you can do whatever because why not, but that's not the type of thinking you should take away from this conversation.

In tougher games, raising JTs UTG can help to balance your range. It's not that you *need* to raise this and you should think about current game conditions and your own postflop tendencies. It might be a fold, it might be a raise, but it probably won't be a limp.

Different players make different types of mistakes, and you should be thinking more about the players than the stakes.

I just want to point out that there's only one hand worth more than the blinds. Every other hand - including KK - is perfectly happy with the result of everyone folding and taking down the blinds.

So when we talk about JTs balancing a UTG range, it's not about getting our 88s and AJs paid off, it's about being able to hit a wider range of flops. If you raise 88+ ATs+ KJs+ QJs AJo+ KQo, you get carved up on 7-high flops because it's like 2:1 you have overs, you have to develop countermeasures to keep your range wide if they attack the flop (like delaying to the turn with your 88+ or checking behind the worst flops). JTs helps you hit J-high, T-high, as well as Q-high and 9-high flops, but the effect is mitigated by the ATs and KJs that you already raise. Arguably 77 is better than JTs in that regard. I haven't run the math on this but if someone told me that 76s outperformed JTs when tacked onto the steong range above, I wouldn't dismiss it outright.