Three limps, I call JT in HJ, BN who's a little tilted raises, SB who's been losing big now 3bets and has 3 chips left, all the limpers call and it's on me.

I'd happily call if I were closing the action but BN can still cap it if I flat and SB would be AI for a 23 SB main pot with a side pot of 1 SB.

I'd be getting 5:1 on my money if I call the cap but then I'd be putting in another 3 bets with JTs pre and playing for a near dry side pot.

Best play?

Raise preflop

Also yes call the two bets closing the action. You have good position and good relative position to the raiser and 3 bet guy.

I'm not closing the action though...

4 bet so button can 5 bet

Shovel your money in, JTs is a great multiway hand.

Raise preflop for sure. As played, I would happily call. I think back-4betting is a mistake but is a much smaller mistake than folding.

You should've raised the first time.

As played, prying JTs out of my cold dead hands preflop here.

That’s ok. Call the two bets. If was capped to me 5 ways I’d call as well.

Best play is to raise preflop the first time around.

Second best play is to call the second time around.

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I see the consensus is to raise pre but I've been following LHE PF play guides and none of them say to raise in this spot. They all recommend over calling.

I'm generally not a limper and tend to mostly raise or fold pre so I thought I'd ask why raise here is better. It's not exactly for value because we don't have the best hand, it's not a bluff, and although we have great potential playability we haven't flopped anything yet.

With a speculative hand don't we want to minimize our investment pre? I love JTs as much as the next player but I'm not sure I love it enough to "shovel my money in" or 4bet it back.

Would love to hear everyone's thoughts on why raising is better. I'm open to it...

Which preflop guide are you using? Does it recommend a raising range after that many limpers?

What do you think those limpets ranges are? I’d be willing to bet you have more than you’re fair share of equity pre flop.

There is something of a 'raise pre' mania in this forum. I don't mind a raise pre here but I certainly don't advocate it and usually don't do it myself. JTss is a nice hand multi-way and I'd rather have as big a field as possible for 1 or 2 bets. When I find myself in your spot, though, I cap it myself bec why the heck not w/ a nice pot-builder with that many callers and think 'Wheeeee.........!!!!!'

Do you think raising is incorrect?

A raise is ok - and even necessary at higher limits - but at 8-16 I don't often do it bec, once the field is already big, then over-limpers are going to come along often w/ very weak hands that we have great equity against. I don't see any reason to drive them out. But I'm never folding OP's hand w/ that many players so I cap it myself.

Why would it be better to raise at higher limits?

And sorry not trying to be a jerk and not trying to keep pulling the Socratic method on ya.

Even at 20-40 it's necessary to make balancing plays and raising J-10ss UTG becomes correct nm in middle position. I find that at 8-16 there is no need to make any balancing plays. Sometimes I do but, really, the players at that level and below don't give a damn about your range and trying to make them assign you a wider one isn't really important. At those stakes, w/ 5+ players/hand, I think the premium is on superior post-flop play. The thing to be very careful about is not thinking that you're a world-beater and start adding too many hands.

(1) Most of the pre flop guidelines that suggest over-limping with JTs preflop are outdated and assume that limpers are tighter/have stronger limping ranges than they actually do. If you're going to overlimp, do it with slightly weaker hands - I think J9s is a fine hand to overlimp with (but I probably raise), and I would definitely overlimp J8s after three limpers.

(2) JTs is a great hand. If it makes a straight with two cards, it is always the nuts. When it makes straights, other players usually have a second-best hand. It flops tons of combo draws and puts you in a position where you will be able to continue on lots of flops and turns (and thereby realize more of your equity). It does well equity-wise (especially in multiway pots) and has exceptional playability.

I have four different guides including SSLHE and Winning Low-Limit Holdem. All say to call. Raising range over limpers include 88+, the good suited Broadways (QJs+) and AJo+.

I'd say the limpers ranges would be 22-TT (JJ-KK is not out of the question at all), A2s+, 76s+, A8o+, any two paint (AK also not out of the question), and some medium off suit connectors. Could easily throw in some suited gappers in there. Hell you can even throw in the off suit gappers like J9o. 8/16 players love to say that any two cards can win.

I plugged it in an app and all our equities run about the same. JTs doesn't have an equity advantage at all. This is why I'm hesitant to keep clicking it back. Feels like over calling and minimizing my investment pre seems better.

Thanks for your explanation although I'd say that the guides don't assume tight limping ranges. Most of them say low limit players are notoriously loose limpers with wide ranges which is clearly the case.

Couple of questions: would J9s be the bottom of your raising range over these limpers?

Also, I would muck J8s in this spot and not think much about it. Am I too nitty?

J9s is pretty close to the bottom of my range here, yes.

I would not fold J8s after three limpers in late position. I would open with it in the CO so I can't imagine folding it for one bet in a pot that is going to go off 5+ ways.

Keep track of how often people show up with hands outside the range you've assigned. I suspect you'll find it's a lot.

I think you should include the suited 1-gappers for sure, plus:
A2o-A7o
K9o
K2s-K9s
Q8s-Q9s
J7s-J9s
65s-54s

It's quite possible that including these hands won't make your hot/cold equity change drastically. Most people aren't raising much worse than JTs and most books advocate raising slightly better hands like QJs so JTs should be near the bottom of any range and as a result a marginal equity advantage is expected.

But the hot/cold equity will miss the playability aspect. JTs will eat more than its fair share of equity on flops like KQx (when it is behind 77 and A2o but will disproportionately win the pot) and 987 (where people will put in a lot of action with dominated draws like T9).

I snap raise here (but unlike what someone said above I don't open it UTG in a FR MSLHE game), but if you thoughtfully decide not to do it, it's not the end of the world. Just make sure that you're not doing it for the wrong reasons. And wrong reasons would include (1) a Bush-era book told me so, and (2) I assigned an unrealistic range to the limpers.

I'm one of the tighter guys in my regular lineups, and I'd snap raise JTs UTG in a FR MSLHE game that's worth playing. I'd venture as far as saying that if I don't think I can make money with JTs UTG at 20/40, that it's time to go play PLO.

I raise it BTN-5, which is UTG+2 in a FR game.

UTG+1 9-handed. (10-handed if you Play It Smart)