Obv, I do the opposite for the reasons I've mentioned.

W/ regard to the 'why the heck not' remark I was being flippant. In the OP there's a decent chance that it's going to get capped anyway so I do it myself. There should always be a solid reason for making certain plays and that is one of them.

I agree w/ this and mention that the game conditions are generally much different between 8-16 and 20-40. Not always, but generally, and I think the J-10s is a raise at the 20. We can't just limp UTG and we usually don't want to fold at the higher stakes and what's left is a raise.



Yes, but add 'when your opponents don't pay attention to your ranges.'



The question is how to get the most bets in the pot. Just calling invites in more players but as I said if you want to raise I have no great objection. I DID advocate capping once it became clear that everyone's coming along.



I've cleared this up.



No UTG limping at higher stakes, imo.



More mistakes are made at the lower limits.

I agree with this. Although I’m sure some 20/40+ games are good enough and play like lower limit games where raising could/is correct.

No it was clear and I agree with you (not those 4 points) and the rationale you already stated for most of the points. I’d concede limping could be an ok play at lower limits, I just would rather raise for value. Especially when players cold call J7o, T5s, etc and will pay off.

The specific condition stated was "After three limpers and we are in the highjack, do NOT raise with JTs." I don't see how you get more bets in the pot preflop by limping.

In general, after three limpers this should be an auto-raise if the goal is to maximize preflop bets because you're guaranteed at least 3 more bets if you raise and guaranteed zero bets by limping.

After two limpers, I think raising should be pretty standard. Unless you're third to act (and maybe not even then), the number of expected limpers behind you is probably smaller than the number of players who will see the flop for a raise. You're guaranteed 2 from the limpers and you're virtually guaranteed a third bet from the big blind.

This is entirely reasonable so there's no argument from me. My observation is that in my 8-16 game players will limp in behind w/ all kinds of bad hands once they see a large pot developing and I don't want to discourage that. But if someone wants to raise I say 'OK.' There is some advantage to driving out the players behind you giving us last to act position or perhaps getting them to put in more money bad so, 'OK.'

Game conditions trump all. Saying "I raise JTs UTG at 20/40 because balance" is way too simplistic. Hell, my raising standards not only depend on condition, but on who is sitting where.

In games where there's a huge fish in the blinds and a lineup of players who won't exploit it, my EP range is capable of hitting full circus mode. If I'm in a game with a ton of loose 3 betting and tons of aggression, showdowns and big pots, then I'll be making sure my ranges mean I show the goods down frequently.

Generally, the person who takes the best of the action the most is going to be the winner, so really just be sure to take the best of it more and the worst of it less.

All of that is true.

I only call here, and yes calling the re raise and seeing the flop.

Short answer, yes.

Damn, some of you ppl are playing in games where it's correct to fold J-10ss UTG because of game conditions that I hardly ever see? Damn, again! IMR, you're never in a game where you can play that hand?

I've played in games where I raise it a lot. I won't pretend that I've never raised 65s in that spot, or 22, or A2s, which are, in honor of the movie Major League, juuuuust a bit outside.

But I'm not posting to teach DTLB (or you) how to maximize wins in specialized games. Or really fun ways to screw around in games you crush. The hand posted was a pretty standard game, and the question was very general. And as a default, the good poker play is to fold JTs UTG FR and raise it after 3 limpers.

Welp, that's why we have this sub-forum!