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Old 09-02-2017, 11:42 PM   #101
Montrealcorp
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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So you've never ever played heads up vs the big blind from the HJ? I have, and I consider it to be quite a profitable position with both A7o and 33.
Of course I do, because I don't raise 26%+ from there
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Old 09-02-2017, 11:43 PM   #102
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

Well I do. Sometimes they even all fold preflop.
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Old 09-02-2017, 11:50 PM   #103
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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How do you plan to play the JTs and QTs postflop?
R u serious ?
do you really me to be able to answer that like that ?
I would gladly answer your hands you would post tho.
Surely you have some in your date base .
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Old 09-02-2017, 11:54 PM   #104
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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Funny I get that all the time.

You seem like someone that doesn't know anything about theory yet can beat live games because they're ridiculously soft.
I do know some of it, but in the games I play you can almost never profitably showdown 33 or A7 unimproved, and most of the other higher level theory is similarly inapplicable. I tend to forget a lot of what I have read because it's unusable.

Do you use your theory often in games you play? I only remember you posting about playing in 4/8 games, where this kind of stuff should be even less useful.
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Old 09-02-2017, 11:56 PM   #105
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

I'm not about to dig through my hands looking for an example. However, I can probably tell you how you're going to play JTs and QTs:

3 bet preflop and hope to get a heads up pot.

bet the flop 100%.

bet the turn with any pair or better, or any good draw, checking otherwise.

call my river bet with Queen high, fold Jack high, or check behind on the river unimproved.

Sound about right?
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Old 09-02-2017, 11:57 PM   #106
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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Well I do. Sometimes they even all fold preflop.
We'll if you are able to make money with those ( not just when it End up you vs BB which is the best results) , taking account all those multiway pot and when you get 3bet, from the HJ , it is great but me I know I couldn't .
I would get 3bet to death .
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Old 09-02-2017, 11:57 PM   #107
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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Do you use your theory often in games you play?
No I just click buttons.
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Old 09-02-2017, 11:58 PM   #108
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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in the games I play you can almost never profitably showdown 33 or A7 unimproved,
So they never bluff? That's even more ev that you realize when the river checks through.
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Old 09-03-2017, 12:00 AM   #109
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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most of the other higher level theory is similarly inapplicable.
I strongly disagree with this. Knowing the theory is important so you can know where your ev is coming from.
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Old 09-03-2017, 12:05 AM   #110
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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So they never bluff? That's even more ev that you realize when the river checks through.
No, people do bluff occasionally, but not far out of line from what would be considered optimal (probably by accident).

But headsup pots are extremely unusual in almost all live games. Even though occasionally a hand like these unimproved will still be the best hand on the river, they just can't take the multiway heat.
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Old 09-03-2017, 12:08 AM   #111
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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I'm not about to dig through my hands looking for an example. However, I can probably tell you how you're going to play JTs and QTs:

3 bet preflop and hope to get a heads up pot.
Of course

bet the flop 100%.
Of course

bet the turn with any pair or better, or any good draw, checking otherwise.
Not betting any pair it depends, probably bluff any 2 broadway board plus

call my river bet with Queen high, fold Jack high, or check behind on the river unimproved.
No way , I would not call with weaker than an Ahigh probably.


Sound about right?
The thing is, you won't be able to make much money, much less exceed your starting equity.
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Old 09-03-2017, 12:13 AM   #112
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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No, people do bluff occasionally, but not far out of line from what would be considered optimal (probably by accident).
Quite the dubious assumption.
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Old 09-03-2017, 12:18 AM   #113
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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Quite the dubious assumption.
Speaking of the average player here, of course some bluff too much and some almost never. Some players' tendencies are exploitable, but IMO very few bluff so much that you can profitably take a weak ace high to showdown much of the time.
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Old 09-03-2017, 12:21 AM   #114
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

Then check fold and realize tons of ev when they check back their whiffs.
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Old 09-03-2017, 12:29 AM   #115
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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Then check fold and realize tons of ev when they check back their whiffs.
They will check back lot Ahigh which you won't win either .
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Old 09-03-2017, 04:03 AM   #116
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

aaron w cut it out please

guys this kind of argument isn't welcome. please do better.
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Old 09-03-2017, 04:42 AM   #117
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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aaron w cut it out please

guys this kind of argument isn't welcome. please do better.
Everything Bob has posted in this thread seems totally off topic to me.
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Old 09-03-2017, 06:18 AM   #118
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

Let me get this right, montrealcorp:
If we are raising A7o, 33 from the HJ, and a good player is behind us, then we are always getting 3-bet and never getting heads up with the blinds.
At the same time, the range we're up against is a top 15% range.

Do you see how this is logically inconsistent?
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Old 09-03-2017, 09:36 AM   #119
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

Rob, I tried to talk about the flop decision here in my first post in this thread:

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Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
In the short term, I don't think it really matters what you do here.

In the long term, you'll need to think about your preflop 3 betting range and how your opponent's counter strategy allows you to get value. The tighter your 3 betting range, the more your opponents should fold postflop, the bigger your pot share is, but the frequency of such a set of circumstances is lower. The wider your 3 betting range, the more your opponents should call or raise postflop, the smaller your pot share is, but the frequency of such a set of circumstances is higher.

Think of all of the profitable strategies that could fall in between those two extremes. There are many.

----

Enough mumbo jumbo though. Let's talk about the hand:

I 3 bet this range preflop vs a competent HJ and a bad cutoff caller: 55+, A8s+, ATo+, KJs+, KQo, QJs.

I have a lot of hands that want to check here on the flop like A9s, ATs, ATo, AQs, AQo, AKs, AKo, KQs, KQo. Notice that I'm never check folding. This is just the nature of playing a value heavy preflop range out of position to two opponents.

If I'm always calling, that may seem to indicate that my opponents shouldn't bluff, however the strong draws on this board are a favorite vs my unpaired hands like AKo. There are many strong draws on this board in addition to the many medium strength draws and weak draws. So the stronger draws have incentive to bet here vs my range, in addition to all the decent pairs in my opponent's ranges. Then I'm getting great odds to draw with my whole checking range. Sometimes I even win when the whole hand checks through unimproved.
Unfortunately the thread got derailed into a preflop discussion. This was not my intention, but I apologize anyways for engaging in the off topic discussion. If you want to go back to talking about the flop decision, that's cool with me.
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Old 09-03-2017, 10:46 AM   #120
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

Unfortunately, it got derailed???

Summary of that first post:

"Doesn't matter what you do" to question asked.

[Tons of mumbo jumbo starting the derail].
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Old 09-03-2017, 10:49 AM   #121
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

I laid out my entire flop strategy...

Last edited by DougL; 09-03-2017 at 11:35 AM. Reason: All smiles for everyone
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Old 09-03-2017, 11:46 AM   #122
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

Hopefully everyone is happy that feelings about stuff have gotten out. Sounds like discussion has moved on to the flop.

I'll throw in a worthless $0.02.

AKo with none of the flush draw on a J85 is supposed to be a meh spot. Whatever our range is, we 3 bet OOP and both the original raiser and the cold caller should like board better than we do. I'd expect a couple of schools of thought on how to play from here, based on assumptions about how the "competent" player and the "fishy" one play post flop. Assuming a pretty tight 3 betting range preflop (the bad guys will, even if we're looser), we don't have a lot of J's and our 8's mostly walk in pairs. 2 of our 6 outs to draw to the best hand are dubious and even if we hit turned black A, we're fading a bunch of cards on the river.

I didn't read the thread above carefully, but I would love to see people back up their flop arguments with stoves. Don't really care about exact % of equity as much as the assumptions that go into villain ranges. If the fish is playing a lot of middle suited connector, 1-gap, 2-gap hands, did he just smash the flop?

Without any deep thought, I totally get the check and call 1 bet folks. If there were two cold callers, I think it would be certain. Not as sure here in a 3 way pot.
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Old 09-03-2017, 11:56 AM   #123
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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AKo with none of the flush draw on a J85 is supposed to be a meh spot. Whatever our range is, we 3 bet OOP and both the original raiser and the cold caller should like board better than we do.
I totally agree with this. I think that if your thought process looks like this:

1) I might have the best hand sometimes.
2) I'm out of position to two opponents that have all the good draws in range.

and somehow you decide to bet the flop based on that? I think that's a poor thought process.
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Old 09-03-2017, 02:25 PM   #124
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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Originally Posted by SetofJacks View Post
Let me get this right, montrealcorp:
If we are raising A7o, 33 from the HJ, and a good player is behind us, then we are always getting 3-bet and never getting heads up with the blinds.
At the same time, the range we're up against is a top 15% range.

Do you see how this is logically inconsistent?
yeah maybe.

post 53, opening statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
I kinda totally disagree.
You can have a soft game but still have good players (1 or 2) in it.
And if those 1 or 2 other player would have position
post 58

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Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
And this is when you get 3bet, lets say the aggro 3bettor pass is turn, it is far from being sure you will win the hand anyway vs 2 other passif player.
True you will lose less but still the cost of pf is adding up quickly unless you run good.
post 77

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
Of course if no one is ready to challenge your 30% + open range by simply calling , than go for it .
But those condition are more on the side of great condition than soft condition .
Guess it is just semantic .
just saying...
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Old 09-03-2017, 06:33 PM   #125
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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Without any deep thought, I totally get the check and call 1 bet folks. If there were two cold callers, I think it would be certain. Not as sure here in a 3 way pot.
I agree that the number of opponents matters, as do their ranges.

Against three players, it probably doesn't matter because you're never winning without the best hand, so you're just going to have to make your pair before you profit. But since you do this about a third of the time and you're only putting in 25% of the money, this isn't a big deal.

Against one player, you have enough of a chance to win this without showdown plus a good enough chance of still having the best hand that betting is completely reasonable.

And, of course, two players is the hard case. But one drawback to this line of thinking is if your 3 betting range is narrow and you only ever checked your no pair (or no pair/no draw) hands then your play is going to be too transparent. If you have a wider 3-betting range*, you might have enough hands in there for a reasonable mix of flop checks. Or (as I had suggested before), if you're disciplined enough to check big hands sometimes to create that balance you could also take that route.

* Note: This is 3-betting after an MP raise and a LP coldcall, not just 3-betting against an opener. So you will have a much wider calling range and a much smaller 3-betting range. I would 3-bet ATs against an open-raise but just call with a cold-caller in between. (And if the limper went first, I would 3-bet against what I would read as a suspected iso-raise.)
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