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Old 08-28-2017, 02:33 AM   #1
DTLB
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8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

MP raises (seems like competent player), CO calls (fish), I 3b AK from SB, both call

3-way (7 SB): J85

A lot of players seem to auto cbet here but I'm not sure about it. Doesn't seem like it's for value nor is it a bluff. I also won't have a plan for the turn if I cbet and get called.

Best play?
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Old 08-28-2017, 11:22 AM   #2
Aaron W.
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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Originally Posted by DTLB View Post
MP raises (seems like competent player), CO calls (fish), I 3b AK from SB, both call

3-way (7 SB): J85

A lot of players seem to auto cbet here but I'm not sure about it. Doesn't seem like it's for value nor is it a bluff. I also won't have a plan for the turn if I cbet and get called.

Best play?
What hand range do you put MP/CO on that makes you think it's not a value bet? Are you really convinced that someone has a pair already?

Also, being out of position is more difficult than being in position. That's just a feature of the game.

I believe that being out of position requires you to play more aggressively than being in position. I don't see how else you can otherwise overcome your positional disadvantage. (This doesn't mean you need to be a spew monkey out of position, but you're going to find yourself in spots like this, and that's life.)

As for this hand, I would always lead because I don't have reason to believe that this board hit anyone in a fantastic way and AK-high is likely still best. On the turn, my default is to bet into one player and check if there are two.

Assuming I bet the flop and turn, the river is a close check-call or check-fold depending on anything I know about villain, player tendencies at these stakes, and board texture. The questions I would be asking myself is if there are any missed draws that might bluff, and how frequently a missed draw would bluff if given the chance.
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Old 08-28-2017, 03:31 PM   #3
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

Check/call
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Old 08-28-2017, 06:31 PM   #4
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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What hand range do you put MP/CO on that makes you think it's not a value bet? Are you really convinced that someone has a pair already?

Also, being out of position is more difficult than being in position. That's just a feature of the game.

I believe that being out of position requires you to play more aggressively than being in position. I don't see how else you can otherwise overcome your positional disadvantage. (This doesn't mean you need to be a spew monkey out of position, but you're going to find yourself in spots like this, and that's life.)

As for this hand, I would always lead because I don't have reason to believe that this board hit anyone in a fantastic way and AK-high is likely still best. On the turn, my default is to bet into one player and check if there are two.

Assuming I bet the flop and turn, the river is a close check-call or check-fold depending on anything I know about villain, player tendencies at these stakes, and board texture. The questions I would be asking myself is if there are any missed draws that might bluff, and how frequently a missed draw would bluff if given the chance.
What you say makes a lot of sense as always but I guess where I struggle is the turn after I cbet. I can expect both players to call flop like 90% of the time and then if I don't improve OTT I'll have to check and leave myself open to being bluffed or semi-bluffed off my hand. So it feels like I've cbet for nothing although I don't see a better alternative as it's the same thing if I x/c as monikrazy suggested.
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Old 08-28-2017, 06:37 PM   #5
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

I also check-call.
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Old 08-28-2017, 06:54 PM   #6
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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What you say makes a lot of sense as always but I guess where I struggle is the turn after I cbet. I can expect both players to call flop like 90% of the time and then if I don't improve OTT I'll have to check and leave myself open to being bluffed or semi-bluffed off my hand. So it feels like I've cbet for nothing although I don't see a better alternative as it's the same thing if I x/c as monikrazy suggested.
Underlined 1: Where does that 90% come from, and how confident are you that it's right? (I don't know what the percent would be, as it would depend a lot on the open-raising range of MP and the cold-calling range of CO, as well as their flop-peeling tendencies.)

Bolded: Yes, this happens. And if you never leave yourself open to this possibility, you're betting way too much.

Underlined 2: Is it for nothing? The purpose of a value bet is that you get called by worse hands. That means if you bet and they call, and they had worse hands, you've done your job. Also, if you bet and the fold better hands, you've also done your job. As the pot gets bigger, you don't even mind as much if you bet and they start folding worse hands.

----

Here's the thing: You should have a fairly narrow 3-bet range from SB against a MP raise. If you always checked unpaired cards on the flop and always bet when you have a pair of something, your play becomes extremely transparent. So there's value to betting unpaired hands (alternatively, checking pairs) in terms of keeping your range balanced.

That being said, I don't mind a check-call on the flop if it's balanced and if you're willing to check-call stronger hands sometimes (maybe AA/KK). But I'd rather bet with those hands, so I'll bet unpaired hands as well.

Try thinking about this spot as MP. Look at your entire open-raising range and think about how you might respond to SB in this spot. Would you open 77 from MP? If so, you just got 3-bet by an out of position player and he's continuing to fire at you. Your hand isn't likely to improve and the board is potentially going to get kind of scary. Are you willing to go three bets to show this down? What about 99? You might not even be all that happy with QJs (though you're probably more inclined to show it down).
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Old 08-28-2017, 07:21 PM   #7
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

Check call one bet on the flop.
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Old 08-28-2017, 07:32 PM   #8
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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Underlined 1: Where does that 90% come from, and how confident are you that it's right? (I don't know what the percent would be, as it would depend a lot on the open-raising range of MP and the cold-calling range of CO, as well as their flop-peeling tendencies.)

Bolded: Yes, this happens. And if you never leave yourself open to this possibility, you're betting way too much.

Underlined 2: Is it for nothing? The purpose of a value bet is that you get called by worse hands. That means if you bet and they call, and they had worse hands, you've done your job. Also, if you bet and the fold better hands, you've also done your job. As the pot gets bigger, you don't even mind as much if you bet and they start folding worse hands.

----

Here's the thing: You should have a fairly narrow 3-bet range from SB against a MP raise. If you always checked unpaired cards on the flop and always bet when you have a pair of something, your play becomes extremely transparent. So there's value to betting unpaired hands (alternatively, checking pairs) in terms of keeping your range balanced.

That being said, I don't mind a check-call on the flop if it's balanced and if you're willing to check-call stronger hands sometimes (maybe AA/KK). But I'd rather bet with those hands, so I'll bet unpaired hands as well.

Try thinking about this spot as MP. Look at your entire open-raising range and think about how you might respond to SB in this spot. Would you open 77 from MP? If so, you just got 3-bet by an out of position player and he's continuing to fire at you. Your hand isn't likely to improve and the board is potentially going to get kind of scary. Are you willing to go three bets to show this down? What about 99? You might not even be all that happy with QJs (though you're probably more inclined to show it down).
Man you really explain things very well and I learn a lot from you. Really appreciate it! I can see now why betting is good. It balances my cbet range since I always cbet my big pairs in this spot. It gets worse hands to call and some better hands to fold. That part I knew but it was what to do OTT UI that I was struggling with but I'll just have to xf some times and that's part of the game. I guess I can say I'll be able to fire again the times I'm suited and pick up a BDFD.

As for Underlined 1: I'm pretty confident about that number overall from what I've seen in my 8/16 games. People peel insanely light OTF and do all sorts of dumb stuff which makes the game so profitable even for a newbie like me.
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Old 08-28-2017, 10:50 PM   #9
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

Is betting with a heart and checking without a heart reasonable? Obviously you can deviate based on in game observations.
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Old 08-29-2017, 04:27 AM   #10
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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Is betting with a heart and checking without a heart reasonable? Obviously you can deviate based on in game observations.
I definitely would have bet with a heart. It was the fact that I didn't have any backdoors that I was uncertain what to do.
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Old 08-29-2017, 02:50 PM   #11
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

It seems like a pretty straightforward check on the flop but would be good to see some ranges and equity vs villains.
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Old 08-29-2017, 03:32 PM   #12
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

I agree with Aaron W.
It's too early to flip your hand face up.
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Old 08-31-2017, 07:22 PM   #13
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

I always bet here and decide what to do next on the turn.

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Old 09-01-2017, 12:48 AM   #14
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

Couldn't decide on which of these responses.

Bet flop the rest of your life in this spot and you will be fine.

A real life scenario for it to ever be +EV for OP to check flop in this spot is close enough to 0%.
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Old 09-01-2017, 08:40 AM   #15
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

In the short term, I don't think it really matters what you do here.

In the long term, you'll need to think about your preflop 3 betting range and how your opponent's counter strategy allows you to get value. The tighter your 3 betting range, the more your opponents should fold postflop, the bigger your pot share is, but the frequency of such a set of circumstances is lower. The wider your 3 betting range, the more your opponents should call or raise postflop, the smaller your pot share is, but the frequency of such a set of circumstances is higher.

Think of all of the profitable strategies that could fall in between those two extremes. There are many.

----

Enough mumbo jumbo though. Let's talk about the hand:

I 3 bet this range preflop vs a competent HJ and a bad cutoff caller: 55+, A8s+, ATo+, KJs+, KQo, QJs.

I have a lot of hands that want to check here on the flop like A9s, ATs, ATo, AQs, AQo, AKs, AKo, KQs, KQo. Notice that I'm never check folding. This is just the nature of playing a value heavy preflop range out of position to two opponents.

If I'm always calling, that may seem to indicate that my opponents shouldn't bluff, however the strong draws on this board are a favorite vs my unpaired hands like AKo. There are many strong draws on this board in addition to the many medium strength draws and weak draws. So the stronger draws have incentive to bet here vs my range, in addition to all the decent pairs in my opponent's ranges. Then I'm getting great odds to draw with my whole checking range. Sometimes I even win when the whole hand checks through unimproved.
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Old 09-01-2017, 10:20 AM   #16
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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Enough mumbo jumbo though. Let's talk about the hand:

I 3 bet this range preflop vs a competent HJ and a bad cutoff caller: 55+, A8s+, ATo+, KJs+, KQo, QJs.
I suspect this range does not look like most other players' ranges and is suspiciously -EV-looking for a game like live 8/16.
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Old 09-01-2017, 10:39 AM   #17
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

What ranges do you put the raiser and the caller on?
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Old 09-01-2017, 11:13 AM   #18
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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What ranges do you put the raiser and the caller on?
MP's open is probably something like 88+, ATs+, AJo+, KJs+, KQo, maybe QJs. CO caller could be a lot of things, but it's less relevant because we're out of position against MP's range.

I'd rather take a flop 4-way out of position cheaply than 3-ways out of position expensively. So much of your 3-betting range are things that I'd think about calling with and just taking a flop.
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Old 09-01-2017, 11:20 AM   #19
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

I think that's a very tight range for what I assumed was the HJ. I'd open that range utg at a full table. That doesn't prove anything but just for example. The range I put a supposed competent player on in the HJ looks like this:

33+, A2s+, A7o+, K7s+, KTo+, Q9s+, QJo, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s.
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Old 09-01-2017, 11:32 AM   #20
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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I think that's a very tight range for what I assumed was the HJ.
All we have is "MP" and 8/16 indicates a live game. I think assuming that this is HJ is a bit optimistic.

Quote:
The range I put a supposed competent player on in the HJ looks like this:

33+, A2s+, A7o+, K7s+, KTo+, Q9s+, QJo, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s.
You probably don't play any live poker at all.
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Old 09-01-2017, 11:53 AM   #21
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

I've played a bit, actually. Not much in the past few years, but enough to have a relevant opinion.

But that's besides the point that the opponent isn't competent if he's raising the range you posted.
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Old 09-01-2017, 12:06 PM   #22
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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I've played a bit, actually. Not much in the past few years, but enough to have a relevant opinion.

But that's besides the point that the opponent isn't competent if he's raising the range you posted.
Live competency is a different standard than online competency. Competency is always relative to the table conditions. In loose games where players are coldcalling a bunch, the value of raising many of those hands goes way down, and many of them change to folds.

Besides, it doesn't even matter if you throw in another layer of hands. It's still much much tighter than the range you've assumed. I find that your assumption that MP = HJ is probably an error, and that the 3-betting range you suggested is far too wide to be profitable in this situation.
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Old 09-01-2017, 12:20 PM   #23
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

You're assigning an utg range to this preflop action:

Quote:
,MP raises (seems like competent player), CO calls (fish),
and I find this amusing.

Quote:
that the 3-betting range you suggested is far too wide to be profitable in this situation.
Funny, I think I could add even more hands and my strategy from the small blind would still show a profit as a whole. If you meant that you think some of those hands I'm 3 betting are unprofitable, then I can only respectfully disagree.

Quote:
Live competency is a different standard than online competency. Competency is always relative to the table conditions. In loose games where players are coldcalling a bunch, the value of raising many of those hands goes way down, and many of them change to folds.
The bold is problematic for me because I think there exists an exact range for each and every position on the poker table that will maximize expectation from that position. Now, I don't know those ranges, but neither do you. All we can do is use standardized ranges for the different positions and hopefully we can agree that deviations from these ranges are bad poker. Thus if someone isn't raising the standardized range, then we must deem them a poor player. Not a competent one. That's why I think the range you gave the supposed competent player is too tight.
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Old 09-01-2017, 12:27 PM   #24
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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You're assigning an utg range to this preflop action:

and I find this amusing.
I'm assigning *YOUR* UTG range to MP's open. There's a difference. It's an error to assume that your opponents play like you.

Quote:
The bold is problematic for me because I think there exists an exact range for each and every position on the poker table that will maximize expectation from that position.
I disagree. Maximizing expectation is dynamic to the table. You can make the claim that there exists a GTO range, and I'd probably go with that. But GTO range does not maximize expectation.

Quote:
All we can do is use standardized ranges for the different positions and hopefully we can agree that deviations from these ranges are bad poker.
I think fixed hand charts is bad poker. I do think that standardized ranges are helpful, but assuming that deviations from those ranges is "bad poker" assumes far too much.

Quote:
Thus if someone isn't raising the standardized range, then we must deem them a poor player. Not a competent one.
I think this is an unhelpful approach.

Quote:
That's why I think the range you gave the supposed competent player is too tight.
I'm fine if you think that my range is too tight. I agree it's conservative. But almost none of the argument leading up to your conclusion really has anything to do with that.
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Old 09-01-2017, 12:40 PM   #25
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Re: 8/16 - AKo. Best play OTF?

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I think fixed hand charts is bad poker. I do think that standardized ranges are helpful, but assuming that deviations from those ranges is "bad poker" assumes far too much.
Tight players think they have it right, but I disagree. I think you're missing preflop value due to your tightness. If you don't think you can play 33 or A7o profitably from the HJ in a soft game, well I guess that's your problem. I think I can play 33 and A7o profitably from the HJ in a soft game. We'll have to disagree then.
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