I'm definitely tight (not sure I'd say very tight) although everything I do seems to be in line with the stuff I read. And despite being tight I can definitely say I'm more aggressive than the vast majority of 8/16 players who often don't pfr AK-AJ or TT, mostly call with draws IP OTF, often check good hands OTT when the flush card comes in, and often check back TPGK OTR instead of going for value.

If you think I'm too tight, let me know specifically where you think I'm going wrong and I'll make the adjustment. It'll help me expand my game. Thanks!

Right now i don't think you're too tight. I think by the book TAG is a good strat for someone who is learning.

The first area to open up will be ranges against limpers. There's often a ton of value there because they're playing weak hands and doing it straightforwardly.


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Ok I'll work on raising those hands in LP. Thanks!

Okay you're correct here and I was imprecise towards my description of the field. You should have some game theoretical bluffs/river plays in mind and use them against more skilled players (who are very few). The 8/16 is not a monolith, but at times it seems as though everyone not paying each other off is extremely rude in this recreational paradise.

KQ is the only two pair you have here. Do you raise 77 preflop after 3 limpers? I don't. Here's the hand range I see playing to this point (up to the river bet):

[K567Q board]

KK - 3 combos
QQ - 3 combos
KQ - 9 combos
AA - 6 combos
AK - 12 combos
KJ - 12 combos
KTs - 3 combos
Total: 48 combos

If KQ is your lower calling limit, and you're 3-betting KK/QQ, here's how your range looks:

3-bet: 12.5%
Call: 18.75%
Fold: 68.75%

At a theoretical level, given that you're getting 13:1 and you're folding 2/3 of the time, this is super-super exploitable.

At a practical level, it's helpful that very few people are taking shots at you like this, but it's also true that people do strange things. And they only need to do it a small percent of the time for this call to be correct.

At a meta level, I think I'd rather have the reputation for paying off weird river plays than folding to them. Being unbluffable is a better image to have than being a hero-folder.

I still pay this off all day long with AK.

I'd be more likely to raise 77 after 3 limpers than KJo.

Why?

It's much more difficult to realize your preflop equity with 77 compared to KJo when postflop play is taken into consideration.

Two pair is what my calling limit is, not KQ. And, it's based on exploiting my opponents range not shoring up mine. Even AA is good here less than 5% of the time, imhe. I'm calling like <10% of the field here. And I can have a straight or two small pairs here, btw, because I have my own "meta game" with unusual plays.

add: This is also why there's virtually no scenario where there's 0% chance that I'm bluffing, so they don't know why I folded. I have tried to bluff loose-passive showdown bound players w/ seven-hi, and will continue to do so.

It's true, they can xr a lot and show a profit at 8/16, but they just don't do it. The downside to folding is that if your opponents have adapted, then you'd have no information that this has happened. So, I can see the side for calling.

Do you have another two pair on this board that you've played this way?

The blind assigning of value to hands based on the absolute hand ranking without consideration of board texture is a significant error of poker reasoning.

Except I already said that I could have two-pair if you'd slow down and read my post, and I did consider texture, etc. and came to the conclusion that two-pair hands is my borderline. You're reading something in my post that simply isn't there.

It's debatable as to how much you want to exploit.

this is a good summary. Here's what my VB range looks like (given I'm advocating for a fold here):

55+, 65s, 76s, KQ, K7s, K6s, K5s, 98s, KTs+, KJ+. I think this covers all of my sets, straights, and two pairs.

So bucket them:

Straight - 4 combos (98s)
Set - 15 combos (KK, QQ, 77, 66, 55)
Two pair - I'm lazy so call it 20 combos (KQ, K7s, K6s, K5s, 76s, 65s)
Overpair - 6 (AA)
Top pair - 27 (AK, KJ, KTs)
Possibly too thin anyway: 24 (88-JJ)

So yeah, I'm folding over half my combos here, which is obviously nutball. If I remove the 88-JJ crap that I possibly shouldn't be betting river with anyway, it's still 62.5% are a bet/call or bet/3 bet.

Doing the combos, I do think Aaron W is probably right that if we're betting 88-JJ for value, we're opening ourselves to a world of hurt by bet/folding AK. It's a little more justified w/ a nittier river betting range, because even though we're folding too much, it's not so obvious that we're folding big hands frequently.

It's possible OP can make an exploitative fold here because I'm sure he's not viewed as someone to take a shot at on the river. It might be too much for me to do so, though.

I don't understand, then.

You said you had two pair as your lower limit. I've listed the hands that I think would play this way and end up with two pair, and came to the conclusion that KQ is the only two pair you would have in your hand.

Then I asked you what other two pair hands you would have. And you have not provided another two pair hand in your range that you would play this way.

Which of these are you raising preflop? I don't think you actually show up on the river with most of these.

I raise limpers wide from the CO. Thinking about it, it's probably bad at this stake because people limp much stronger than the crap they limp in with at midstakes.

Well, if 65s and 55 are in your preflop raising range after 3 limpers, so be it. I think it's a bit hyper-aggro for limit.

You shouldn't put ranges in my mouth.

I can have the 98s,97s,87s,A6, etc. etc. and I'm not necessarily going for value w/ KJ, KT here based on my "reads". If I think my opponent has a K, why would I bet KT?

Players would characterize my game as unusual, so I am not going into detail on the internet to clarify the range that belongs in my mouth. If you want to assume my two pair is KQ here, that's fine. It's not my burden to prove you wrong. And, if I muck here, they still have no idea what mucked.

Obviously depends on the limpers (like if 2003 style winner limps it up front, I'm not bumping them with K5s, but if "I limp 80% of hands and check fold when I don't flop a pair or a draw" types do it, gambool gambool). These equities are actually pretty decent against wide ranged, severely decapitated opponents, so it doesn't really nuke our range v range edge.

I am open to being told it's too much, though, given it's somewhat comical what I opt to raise sometimes on the button versus limpers.

All things in moderation imo.

Sometimes we get too narrow in the pre-flop debate on how EV a single hand is rather than look at the over-arching EV of a strategy. This is because it's not yet computable (at least reasonably), and it's easier to look at hand histories of specific hands, their EVs, but you total all the EVs together it's not EXACTLY the same as an entire strategy.

add: For example, say I have A6s. It may not be the best raise, but it does help the other hands in my range that A6s is in my range. The other hands profit from having a wider range.

Shania IMO. Even though A6s is likely a slam dunk raise against two limpers, especially since limpers love them some suited hands (so occasionally you get to draw over draw someone).

So... you're raising A6 preflop, betting second pair on the flop, betting third pair on the turn, and value betting the river with it on the river? Or trying to bluff two players out of the pot?

This really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Do you think your opponent has a K?

I would bet KT here because I think you'll get called by enough worse hands. Passively played pairs like TT/99 will probably look you up. Limpers' hands can include things like Kxs. You might even get called by a hand like 97. Top pair is not a bad value bet if nobody has shown any aggression other than you so far.

Shania? Not familiar w the latest slang.

I want some aces in my limps for board coverage for A high flops. Basically, at this limit I raise about 25% of hands that are borderline between raise and limp. So I'll miss value and sacrifice value at times for strategy.

Shania is pretty old. I think there was still wood paneling at the time.

I don't necessarily think my opponent has a K here. This is why I get exhausted in games, because live O try to pinpoint their exact holdings, and know their strategy better than they know mine.

Oh so it is the artist, haha. Thought it was an acronym.

From 2004:

http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/show...fpart=all&vc=1